Separation of Church and State

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Adam Caramon

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This article got me thinking: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...eral-land-is-unconstitutional/?iref=allsearch

(Article summary: A group put a cross on public lands, other groups complained, the group then started interring veterans at the site in order to make the cross a "war memorial", other groups took this group to court, court sided against the cross group.)

The USA was founded on a strict separation of church and state; it has been ingrained into our culture since its inception. Of those who left Europe to come to America, a common theme was escaping religious persecution.

However, today, it seems as if Europe is far less religious than America is, much like a role reversal.

Since the USA is such a young country in the grand scheme of things, I wonder how Europe handles these sorts of situations? There must be religious symbols all over Europe, some hundreds of years old or more I'd imagine.

Is there any sort of official separation of church and state in the UK or any other European country? I've come to understand that politics & religion are not nearly so intertwined in Europe as they are here.
 
In England the Head of State(King or Queen) is also head of the Church of England and appoints Bishops, Archbishops etc. In Scotland the Church is independant.
 
I do not see how the invasion of the Americas can have a common theme of escaping religious persecution, seems every European nation who supposedly discovered the lands were bent on stealing it from the people who already lived here and claiming it as their own.


Adam Caramon said:
This article got me thinking: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...eral-land-is-unconstitutional/?iref=allsearch

(Article summary: A group put a cross on public lands, other groups complained, the group then started interring veterans at the site in order to make the cross a "war memorial", other groups took this group to court, court sided against the cross group.)

The USA was founded on a strict separation of church and state; it has been ingrained into our culture since its inception. Of those who left Europe to come to America, a common theme was escaping religious persecution.

However, today, it seems as if Europe is far less religious than America is, much like a role reversal.

Since the USA is such a young country in the grand scheme of things, I wonder how Europe handles these sorts of situations? There must be religious symbols all over Europe, some hundreds of years old or more I'd imagine.

Is there any sort of official separation of church and state in the UK or any other European country? I've come to understand that politics & religion are not nearly so intertwined in Europe as they are here.
Click to expand...
 
Fifty2One said:
I do not see how the invasion of the Americas can have a common theme of escaping religious persecution, seems every European nation who supposedly discovered the lands were bent on stealing it from the people who already lived here and claiming it as their own.
Click to expand...

Escaping persecution of one's self and persecuting others are 2 entirely different things.

Brian
 
Rabbie said:
In England the Head of State(King or Queen) is also head of the Church of England and appoints Bishops, Archbishops etc. In Scotland the Church is independant.
Click to expand...

Oh, I didn't know that. I thought the Archbishop of Canterbury was the head of the Church of Englad? Is the king or queen more the ceremonial leader while the archbishop is the day-to-day guy, or not?

Either way, that's formally. I'm wondering more about the every day type of stuff. Do politicans there give speechs that mention god a lot? Do they use religious rhetoric in their communications with the masses?

Fifty2One said:
I do not see how the invasion of the Americas can have a common theme of escaping religious persecution, seems every European nation who supposedly discovered the lands were bent on stealing it from the people who already lived here and claiming it as their own.
Click to expand...

I know that was one of the reasons that I was taught in high school. In further studying, it does seem to at least hold up to some scrutiny.

I don't think that would be limited to European nations either; such is the way of powerful countries, exerting their will and influence upon the weaker ones around them.
 
Adam Caramon said:
This article got me thinking: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/...eral-land-is-unconstitutional/?iref=allsearch

(Article summary: A group put a cross on public lands, other groups complained, the group then started interring veterans at the site in order to make the cross a "war memorial", other groups took this group to court, court sided against the cross group.)

The USA was founded on a strict separation of church and state; it has been ingrained into our culture since its inception. Of those who left Europe to come to America, a common theme was escaping religious persecution.

However, today, it seems as if Europe is far less religious than America is, much like a role reversal.

Since the USA is such a young country in the grand scheme of things, I wonder how Europe handles these sorts of situations? There must be religious symbols all over Europe, some hundreds of years old or more I'd imagine.

Is there any sort of official separation of church and state in the UK or any other European country? I've come to understand that politics & religion are not nearly so intertwined in Europe as they are here.
Click to expand...

That is a misconception that has been so ingrained into our culture in the last 50 years that it is now taken as fact. The US was NOT founded on Separation of Church and State. The country was "founded" mostly by groups of religious and political disidents. The Constitution formalized the idea of "Freedom of Religion" (not necessarily Freedom From Religion) and codified the ideal that there would be NO official "State Church" that was so prevalent in Europe from the 14th century on.

In fact, the Founding Fathers were almost without exception very religious men and would most likely been appalled at the lengths we now take to insure that our government remains secular to a fault.
 
ChipperT said:
That is a misconception that has been so ingrained into our culture in the last 50 years that it is now taken as fact. The US was NOT founded on Separation of Church and State.
Click to expand...

This issue has been debated a million times, and I don't see that changing. Suffice to say I think, after reviewing a lot of the arguments, both for and against, that the founding fathers did not intend for this to be a "Christian Nation".

But, much like the bible, if you take all of the various statements from the founding fathers, language from our official documents, etc, you could make a case one way or the other.

ChipperT said:
In fact, the Founding Fathers were almost without exception very religious men and would most likely been appalled at the lengths we now take to insure that our government remains secular to a fault.
Click to expand...

I can't agree with that, but as I mentioned, this same argument has played out over and over.

I think one of the things that I find interesting is how much reverence is paid to the founding fathers. These men were a product of their times, and had their own strengths and weakness', as we all do. To try to paint them as more then men, or infalliable is silly.

My personal thoughts are that they were intelligent men who made a calculated decision not to allow the church and state to fall under the same power structure. Perhaps they did not want to have to answer to the church, which seems logical.
 
In the UK, religion is a declining entity. People have realised that it is no longer a valid option in day-to-day activity.

The Church of England is more a historical figure than a real meaningful entity.

I have never heard any polititian mention god or religion as that would lose votes big time.

Col
 
ChipperT said:
In fact, the Founding Fathers were almost without exception very religious men and would most likely been appalled at the lengths we now take to insure that our government remains secular to a fault.
Click to expand...
They capitalize the Founding Fathers in the US? Or do you have a sort of quasi-religious view of your own history? In Canada we capitalize religious terms like Hockey Player, and Snow Fall Warning.
Cheers,
 
More people in the UK find The Beatles more meaningful than god or religion. The Beatles are certainly more popular than god.

Col
 
Davep said:
More people in the UK find The Beatles more meaningful than god or religion. The Beatles are certainly more popular than god.

Col
Click to expand...

That's a shame Col, something I fear will facilitate the further decline in your society.
 
Originally Posted by Davep
More people in the UK find The Beatles more meaningful than god or religion. The Beatles are certainly more popular than god.
Thales750 said:
That's a shame Col, something I fear will facilitate the further decline in your society.
Click to expand...
While I haven't seen any evidence that the original statement by Col is true, there are certain parallels that can be drawn between God and the Beatles:
* Both used to be far more popular in the UK than they currently are.
* Both have their current importance and/or relevance vastly overstated by people of a certain age.
* People believing in the importance of both have had a huge impact on one or more aspect of British life.

Lennon's oft taken out of context comment has proven to be fairly accurate, but even back then it wouldn't have taken a prophet to see that the days of religion as the be all and end all of British society were gone. http://beatlesnumber9.com/biggerjesus.html

Is it 'facilitating' the decline of British society or just occurring at the same time? Who knows. The US certainly appears to be more overtly religious than the UK and it's hardly a bastion of moral virtues.
 

Like the British, the vast majority of Americans practice high moral standards. Our way of life is being attacked by the financial institutions.

But of course, that's another story.

Forget about the existence of God, and take religion separately, as even most religious people do. There are many studies that show a correlation (in America) between regular church attendance and a propensity to participate in community service.

Generally non-fundamentalist church goers exhibit more generosity and compassion.
 
Truthfully, the only reason the politicians in the UK don't mention God is BECAUSE they will lose votes. It's politics. It's the same reason politicians here do mention God. It has nothing to do with whether they truly believe it.

That's my opinion anyway.
 
The idea of Separation of Church and State is one thing. And it is a good idea (for the most part). But the current mindset is not Separation of Church and State. It is ELIMINIATION of Church from State. Which is basically what the Soviet Union took care of when the Communists took power in 1917.

An interesting thing to note is that it seems that the primary target of the elimination is of anything that has to do with the Christian religion. In fact, many of the current court rulings have declared that it is okay for certain OTHER religious dress and symbols to be present in public buildings and areas - such as Muslim Burqas being allowed for teachers in public school so they are not infringed upon for their religious freedom, however it is more and more not being allowed for teachers to wear a cross, for example, when teaching because that is a religious symbol. So, how is a cross any more a religious symbol than a burqa? A burqa identfies one's religion. A cross identifies one's religion. But they are being treated differently by the courts and by school officials.

It is also interesting that we have judges allowing Sharia Law principles to be followed in America which should not be happening. So, this for example, is one instance but it shows that it is more Separation of Christianity from State is more the true goal, and not separation of church and state. Maybe I guess they think that since Muslims don't have "church" it doesn't apply to them.
 
boblarson said:
The idea of Separation of Church and State is one thing. And it is a good idea (for the most part). But the current mindset is not Separation of Church and State. It is ELIMINIATION of Church from State.
Click to expand...

What do you think the difference is? To me, separation of church and state means that the church has no control of the affairs of state.

Or are you talking about public opinion here were there seems to be a backlash against religion?

boblarson said:
An interesting thing to note is that it seems that the primary target of the elimination is of anything that has to do with the Christian religion.
Click to expand...

Well, Christianity is still the dominant religion in the USA, so that is not surprising. You're bound to hear about a lot more cases that deal with Christianity when they're the majority; its simply a numbers game.

boblarson said:
So, how is a cross any more a religious symbol than a burqa? A burqa identfies one's religion. A cross identifies one's religion. But they are being treated differently by the courts and by school officials.
Click to expand...

A cross is a religious symbol, a burqa is an article of clothing. I think the burqa is more tied to Islamic culture than it is to the Muslim religion.

boblarson said:
It is also interesting that we have judges allowing Sharia Law principles to be followed in America which should not be happening.
Click to expand...

Do you have any examples? I had heard of a couple of cases where an Islamic couple/family was asking a judge here to hold valid agreements made while under Sharia law somewhere else. Essentially validating agreements made while under another jurisdiction.

Is that what you're referring to?
 
The burka has been banned in France.

Oh and The Beatles sell more on iTunes than god.:)

Col
 
Adam Caramon said:
A cross is a religious symbol, a burqa is an article of clothing. I think the burqa is more tied to Islamic culture than it is to the Muslim religion.
Click to expand...

I thought that Islam was the religion followed by Muslims.

I think that the total covering up of women is not mention in the Koran althougth they are told to keep their clothes around them, sorry I forget the exact wording its along while since I read it.

I think that the Burka is a cultural clothing item seized on by the fanatics as part of their subjugation of women.

Brian
 
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