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-   -   NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing - (https://www.access-programmers.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=282773)

Rx_ 11-23-2015 11:52 AM

NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
http://www.accuweather.com/en/weathe...imate/53533246

A new study released by NASA reveals that Antarctica is currently gaining more ice than it's losing, disputing other studies that say the continent is overall losing land ice.
The gain in ice is attributed to an increase in Antarctic snow accumulation, which began 10,000 years ago. Satellite data showed that the Antarctic ice had a net gain of 112 billion tons of ice per year from 1992 to 2001, but then slowed to 82 billion tons of ice per year during 2003 to 2008, according to the report, which was published in the Journal of Glaciology.

Other Maritime studies are indicating the short term shrinkage of the Northern Pole have been reversing as well.

Of course, Al Gore has personally made Millions of USD from the efforts related to his version of scientific predictions about Global Warming.

Are humans causing global warming? Is the cycles of the Sun a factor? What role does volcano activity above ground and underwater play?

Is Global Warming really the number one threat to the US National Security?

Alc 11-23-2015 12:10 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

“We’re essentially in agreement with other studies that show an increase in ice discharge in the Antarctic Peninsula and the Thwaites and Pine Island region of West Antarctica,” said Jay Zwally, a glaciologist with NASA Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, and lead author of the study, which was published on Oct. 30 in the Journal of Glaciology. “Our main disagreement is for East Antarctica and the interior of West Antarctica – there, we see an ice gain that exceeds the losses in the other areas.”
Quote:

“If the losses of the Antarctic Peninsula and parts of West Antarctica continue to increase at the same rate they’ve been increasing for the last two decades, the losses will catch up with the long-term gain in East Antarctica in 20 or 30 years -- I don’t think there will be enough snowfall increase to offset these losses.”
It didn't sound to me like they were arguing against the fact that the amount of ice was decreasing. Rather, the amount is dropping, as was previously reported, and while we've found somewhere where it's growing, this doesn't mean the overall amount isn't going down.

Alc 11-23-2015 12:20 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rx_ (Post 1462697)
Of course, Al Gore has personally made Billions of USD from the efforts related to his version of scientific predictions about Global Warming.

Is this http://www.davemanuel.com/net-worth/al-gore/ WAY off, or are you exaggerating just a tad?

Al Gore currently has a net worth of an estimated $172 million.
This went up from around $120 million a few days back.
$70 million from Current TV
$45 million from Apple
$30 - $40 from Google
A big chunk in hedge funds

The $150k to $200k he gets per speech may be based largely on climate change. Let's be generous and say it's 100% from that. He'd have to be making a hell of a lot of speeches to get from $172 million to the billions you say he's made.

Galaxiom 11-23-2015 01:25 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rx_ (Post 1462697)
Other Maritime studies are indicating the short term shrinkage of the Northern Pole have been reversing as well.

Please provide a link because that claim conflicts with everything I have seen. Thick Arctic sea ice melts seasonally and when it comes back during the following winter it is much thinner.

Quote:

Are humans causing global warming? Is the cycles of the Sun a factor? What role does volcano activity above ground and underwater play?
Humans causing an increase in global temperature by the vast increase in CO2 emissions is well beyond doubt.

Cycles of the Sun are already accounted for in the climate models.

Total CO2 emissions from volcanos are about one percent of human emissions.

Rx_ 11-23-2015 04:59 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
I don't think Humans are causing that much CO2. Here is an example:
Thought a Cambridge University from UK quoted in a government site might be neutral.
But, there are many other sources regarding man made vs Nature emissions.
The natural emissions vs human make nature the larger contributor.
http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/1605/archive...t/pdf/tbl3.pdf
If you have some other source, I would be open to see it.

Now Methane is a significant number that would seem concerning.
I heard a presentation about largest percent of Methane attributed to Rice-Paddy farming methods. And, that it was also a fairly recent invention for mankind.

The total COD Emission is not to be confused with the EPA Chart of just Human caused emissions.
If nature is excluded, then this is the human share broken down.
http://www3.epa.gov/climatechange/gh...ns/global.html
Of just the human caused: Outside the US, EU, japan, India, and Russia, The overwhelming majority of the total from the other countries.

I would agree the ice comes back thinner over a larger cycle with other cub cycles.
The Great Lakes were frozen just a very few thousand years ago.
During the American Revolution, New York rivers were frozen solid even through summer. In general, the Ice Age is still generally warming.

I attended a very interesting presentation from the USAF (air force). The studies by the PhD in Heliophysics (study of the Sun's atmosphere). The number of new satellites to just monitor the sun is amazing. There seems to be new things discovered ever few months. At the time of the seminar, they didn't feel there was any absolutes regarding the Sun's model on our global environment. My guess is that Russia science is actually more advanced in this regard. Russia is building atomic icebreakers to prepare for the ice.
Seems every few months, we are still learning something new in that regard.

CJ_London 11-23-2015 05:06 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Humans causing an increase in global temperature by the vast increase in CO2 emissions is well beyond doubt.
Can you provide a link that proves this beyond doubt

Galaxiom 11-23-2015 05:52 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rx_ (Post 1462761)
The natural emissions vs human make nature the larger contributor.

Of course natural systems are the largest contributor but these emissions had been in balance with the reuptake by the environment for millions of years resulting in a relatively stable atmospheric CO2 concentration.

Since the beginning of industrialisation, the atmospheric concentration of CO2 has risen from about 270 ppm to over 400 ppm because of that extra contribution. About half of this rise has been in the past three decades and it continues at an accelerating rate.

Galaxiom 11-23-2015 05:53 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CJ_London (Post 1462765)
Can you provide a link that proves this beyond doubt

Just look at any credible scientific publication on climate.

Galaxiom 11-23-2015 05:57 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rx_ (Post 1462761)
Of just the human caused: Outside the US, EU, japan, India, and Russia, The overwhelming majority of the total from the other countries. .

So except for the countries you listed that emit 70 percent of the pollution, "other countries" are the biggest emitters.

Perhaps you could rephrase what you are trying to say because, on the face of it, that is a ridiculous statement to make.

Galaxiom 11-23-2015 06:02 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rx_ (Post 1462761)
In general, the Ice Age is still generally warming.

Average global temperatures were slowly falling during the first half of the Twentieth Century. This was consistent with the well established natural glaciation cycle of 10,000 years interglacial periods and 100,000 years of glaciation.

Over the next several centuries we would have been moving back towards glaciation.

Rx_ 11-24-2015 09:25 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Thanks for your comments! It is actually good to meet people who, like myself are passionate about the environment.

"Just look at any credible scientific publication on climate."
OK, here are just a few to see if this statement actually means the statements must totally agree with one truth in order to be credible.

My concern is that our precious resources are directed efficiently to achieve the goal. There are suggestions that when the Earth had much higher CO2, there was more bio-life to feed a larger diversity (tonnage) of plant-eaters. In other words, higher CO2 - less world hunger. I don't know the answer. But if that did turn out to be the solution to world hunger, can humanity afford not to consider the theory?

Excerpts Published this week during the UN conference in France
AUSTIN, Texas - A team of prominent scientists gathered in Texas today at a climate summit to declare that fears of man-made global warming were “irrational” and “based on nonsense” that “had nothing to do with science.” They warned that “we are being led down a false path” by the upcoming UN climate summit in Paris.

The scientists appeared at a climate summit sponsored by the Texas Public Policy Foundation. The summit in Austin was titled: “At the Crossroads: Energy & Climate Policy Summit.”

Climate Scientist Dr. Richard Lindzen, an emeritus Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Department of Earth, Atmospheric and Planetary Sciences at MIT, derided what he termed climate “catastrophism.” “Demonization of CO2 is irrational at best and even modest warming is mostly beneficial,” Lindzen said.

Lindzen noted that National Academy of Sciences president Dr. Ralph Cicerone has even admitted that there is no evidence for a catastrophic claims of man-made global warming. (goes on to cite the statements)

“The discourse of catastrophe is a campaigning device,” Hulme wrote to the BBC in 2006. “The language of catastrophe is not the language of science. To state that climate change will be ‘catastrophic’ hides a cascade of value-laden assumptions which do not emerge from empirical or theoretical science,” Hulme wrote. “Is any amount of climate change catastrophic? Catastrophic for whom, for where, and by when? What index is being used to measure the catastrophe?” Hulme continued.

Lindzen singled out Secretary of State John Kerry for his ‘ignorance’ on science. “John Kerry stands alone,” Lindzen said. “Kerry expresses his ignorance of what science is,” he added. Lindzen also criticized EPA Chief Gina McCarthy’s education: “I don’t want to be snobbish, but U Mass Boston is not a very good school,” he said to laughter.

Princeton Physicist Dr. Will Happer, who has authored over 200 peer-reviewed papers, called policies to reduce CO2 “based on nonsense.”

Happer also rebutted the alleged 97% consensus. “97% of scientists have often been wrong on many things,” he said.

Ecologist and Greenpeace founding member Dr. Patrick Moore discussed the benefits of rising carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. “Let’s celebrate CO2!” Moore declared.

Rather than be defending one side, my choice is consider both sides.
I have a problem with any Evangelist that requires my blind faith based on religious or political agendas. The Scientific Method is a worthy process. We saw all kinds of political funding of scientific "truth" during the 1930's through now.

Regarding: "Humans causing an increase in global temperature by the vast increase in CO2 emissions is well beyond doubt." Nothing is beyond doubt for some of us.

CJ_London 11-24-2015 12:51 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Just look at any credible scientific publication on climate.
I have (what I consider to be credible) - and as indicated by Rx there are arguments for and against.

Even the two links provided by Rx are not in agreement - one quotes methane as being less than 0.01% of greenhouse gases produced by human activity - the other 16%.

Libre 11-24-2015 07:06 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
I can appreciate the attitude that the "jury is still out" on the question of climate change, and pretty much any other question. What, after all, is CERTAIN? Almost nothing. If I stated that butterflies were a contributing cause of hurricanes, could you PROVE it untrue beyond any doubt?

We exist in the universe - that much we can state.
After that, it's a matter of informing one's self the best one can, and then forming beliefs and opinions based on our reason, logic, and - perhaps unfortunately, our biases. It's extremely rare that ALL the evidence points straight to an inescapable conclusion. Most of the world's climate scientists are in agreement - that climate change is real and it's caused or at least augmented by human activity. Those that oppose this view most vigorously seem to be those who would most be inconvenienced (for lack of a better word) by the efforts to mitigate it - for example, those who have an investment in heavy industry.

None of us here - and perhaps anywhere, have definite knowledge what's causing average global temperatures to be on the rise - if in fact they are. You can say they're NOT on the rise and produce some links to support your claim. Others will counter with their own evidence. Donald Trump can say he saw thousands of Muslims celebrating the collapse of the WTC with his own eyes and no matter how much this has been disputed, he can and will continue to say he saw them and it's near impossible to absolutely prove he's a liar. Some people will believe him, and others will not. We - alone on this planet, posses the ability to reason, think, and imagine - and to put together disparate pieces of knowledge and evidence and arrive at a likely (but not certain) grasp of what is actually going on.

Invariably, people embrace the beliefs that are in their individual best interests - and they reject the beliefs that are contrary to them. They prefer the evidence that supports what they've already decided, rather than accepting contrary evidence and having to reevaluate their entire belief systems.

You look around you and you hear stuff and see stuff, and read stuff and discuss stuff and you form your beliefs - but don't expect to see THE ANSWERS written in the sky in God's hand.

The_Doc_Man 05-02-2018 09:56 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
The jury may still be out on global warming or global climate change but the question is whether they ever should have been in, with regard to it being man-made.

https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/e...t-be-shattered

This abbreviated quote seems to downplay the gloom-and-doom stormcrows:

Quote:

“The IPCC estimates climate sensitivity at 1.5C to 4.5C, but that estimate is based on computer climate models that failed to predict the absence of warming since 1995 and predicted, on average, four times as much warming as actually occurred from 1979 to the present. It is therefore not credible. Newer, observationally based estimates have ranges like 0.3C to 1.0C (NIPCC 2013a, p. 7) or 1.25C to 3.0C – with a best estimate of 1.75C (Lewis and Crok 2013, p. 9). Further, “No empirical evidence exists to support the assertion that a planetary warming of 2°C would be net ecologically or economically damaging” (NIPCC 2013a, p. 10).”
The full article describes the findings in summary but has some reference links. I will repeat my stance on the subject. I have absolutely no doubt that the climate is changing. It has ALWAYS been changing. It will continue to change. However, it is not at all clear that Man has had much to do with it. The articles that have been predicting doom and gloom since Al Gore's alarmist statements have been guilty of questionable math practices, of drawing results from poor (or no) correlations. They have been using questionable models that have been shown to be HIGHLY inaccurate.

I am a firm believer in science. I am absolutely opposed to "consensus science" if the consensus is based on poor science. The ONLY person (thing) with whom (which) you need consensus is nature itself.

Rx_ 05-02-2018 02:12 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
There is a government center in Boulder, Colorado. They get literally tons of cash to conduct research. They put out government contracts to build and take data from thousands of data gathering centers.
Here is the problem:
The government contract require weather data gathering to be built to a very tight specification
The contracts go out to the typical good-old-boys, political favorites
There is no quality control for the construction
The scientist job is to take data, process data, and state results. Government workers don't care about the data quality. The photos will explain.

This article is for people that understand that taking measurements requires some, even a tiny level of controlled environments and requires maintaining a controlled system.

Over the years, volunteers photographed and documented every weather measurement station. It is in a database for public view.
Note: about 1/3 were not built to requirements. Example: never put on or 400 feet away from pavement, or near an air-conditioner exchange vent, or … the list goes on.

Nobody but volunteers Quality Assured these. So, big surprise, government contractors didn't follow the specification.

Look at the photos, these are fair representations of good installations and bad installations. About 1/3 are bad if you care enough to go through the entire database of photos and understand the methodology.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/03/...rence-network/

If you don't believe in the Scientific Method, then this highly documented research won't matter anyway. This lead to a statement:
U.S. Office of the Inspector General who wrote:
Lack of oversight, non-compliance and a lax review process for the State Department’s global climate change programs have led the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) to conclude that program data “cannot be consistently relied upon by decision-makers” and it cannot be ensured “that Federal funds were being spent in an appropriate manner.”

The_Doc_Man 05-02-2018 06:48 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
While I often have been known to down-play government pronouncements, every time I have looked into OIG statements, they have had considerable substance to them. Rx_, your last sentence tells a sad but probably true tale. That 97% consensus was actually "97% of consultant companies desperately want government money and don't care what they have to do to get it." Which says that maybe 3% of those companies actually have some level of ethical behavior other than zero.

MarkK 05-04-2018 09:20 AM

As I understand it, sea ice is increasing in the antarctic because increased global temperatures are causing higher volumes of fresh-water run-off, which reduces the salinity of the water, and raises its freezing point. This fresh-water melt is lightly less dense than the higher salinity sea-water, and so it 'floats,' freezes more readily, and makes it appear the ice-pack volume is increasing. The cause of this effect, however, is higher global temperature, leading to ice loss on the continent, and an increase in sea-ice.
I have been to Antarctica. This is how the experts on that trip explained the increase in sea-ice.
Mark

Mark_ 05-04-2018 09:57 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
MarkK,
Just to make sure, your talking Antarctica, i.e. SOUTH POLE. An area surrounded by large oceans with little natural run off of its own?

The "Floats" theory sounds very counter to my chem classes and how salt likes to migrate rather quickly in water. If this was the arctic where there is less access to other bodies of water I'd be less skeptical. The arctic does have major sources of fresh water that would be affected by changes in weather in North America (greater rain in northern Canada would lead to more fresh water discharged into the Arctic ocean) but Antarctica lacks flowing rivers to drive this kind of behavior and lacks a physical barrier between its surrounding water and both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

MarkK 05-06-2018 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_ (Post 1575964)
MarkK,
Just to make sure, your talking Antarctica, i.e. SOUTH POLE. An area surrounded by large oceans with little natural run off of its own?

Ahh, no, I am talking about Antarctica, i.e. SOUTH POLE, a continent larger than Australia with the single largest supply of fresh-water on earth, which melts in Summer (our Winter). That melt, and yes, the run-off that results from that melt, is so great is changes the salinity of the surrounding sea, increasing the volume of sea ice by changing--raising--the temperature at which that water freezes.

Rx_ 05-14-2018 06:23 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
https://wattsupwiththat.com/referenc.../sea-ice-page/
This covers both Poles sea-ice
It is "complicated" as one might expect.
The Russian studies related to Maritime Traffic have typically been better indicators of good research. They are graded on trade and military reality. The influence of our Sun as a Variable Star (more stable than most stars) is very interesting.
Al Gore predicted the polar caps would be melted in 5 years back in 2009.
Last April - a discussion of the South Pole ice was posted.
It is a presentation that might be worth reviewing.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/04/...arctic-icecap/
Over the years, it has around 350 Million views.

Mark_ 05-16-2018 10:36 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Rx_,

The link "https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/04/16/can-humans-melt-the-antarctic-icecap/" points to an article that addresses "Could HUMANS melt the ice", not "Could HUMAN activity increase solar absorption world wide". Difference between you using a pedal powered generator to make electricity to power a heating element to melt a piece of ice and you putting black paint on your roof to run water over (on a sunny day) to use the water to melt the ice.

Very good read and, more importantly, expresses just how massive the amount of energy we are talking about. It also explains why so many people grab onto sound bytes as the math itself can be outside of normal understanding.

Orthodox Dave 06-12-2018 08:00 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
I hope the Al Gores of this world are wrong. But I think we can all agree we would all like less pollution. Air pollution kills around 9,000 people a year in London alone. It seems like a good idea to look hard for cleaner energy sources. Since research is expensive, it won't get done unless people think it is sufficiently urgent to do it, so perhaps the Al Gores have their uses, even if wrong. I am not decided either way, although I usually find myself more often in agreement with those who say we must reduce man's carbon footprint than the other way. No-one can pretend they "know". The trouble is, we may only find out when it's too late to do anything about it.

It's interesting these new billionaires like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are coming up with ideas nobody has considered - such as moving heavy industry to another planet. Sounds crazy pie-in-the-sky, but so did going to the moon once. They have the money to do it. Yes they are businessmen, perhaps with their eye on the money they can make, but if they can clean up our planet, why not?

The old problem, as with any debate, is "who do you believe"? Nearly all the people arguing for one side of the other have some vested interest, so the argument is skewed from the start. Science is supposed to be free of bias and purely evidence-based. But unfortunately because human beings are involved, there becomes a "scientific orthodoxy", especially when vested interests are financing research to come up with results that vindicate their position. The debate is not over, but if the Al Gores are right, we can't afford to delay things!

Galaxiom 06-21-2018 04:18 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

The Antarctic Ice Sheet is an important indicator of climate change and driver of sea-level rise.

Here we combine satellite observations of its changing volume, flow and gravitational attraction with modelling of its surface mass balance to show that it lost 2,720 ± 1,390 billion tonnes of ice between 1992 and 2017, which corresponds to an increase in mean sea level of 7.6 ± 3.9 millimetres (errors are one standard deviation). Over this period, ocean-driven melting has caused rates of ice loss from West Antarctica to increase from 53 ± 29 billion to 159 ± 26 billion tonnes per year; ice-shelf collapse has increased the rate of ice loss from the Antarctic Peninsula from 7 ± 13 billion to 33 ± 16 billion tonnes per year.

We find large variations in and among model estimates of surface mass balance and glacial isostatic adjustment for East Antarctica, with its average rate of mass gain over the period 1992–2017 (5 ± 46 billion tonnes per year) being the least certain.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0179-y

Mark_ 06-21-2018 07:14 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
I hadn't realized there was that little change in mean sea level. Over 25 years the change attributed is between 3.7mm to 11.5mm. From what is shown in the news I'd have expected an order of magnitude greater change at least.

Galaxiom 06-21-2018 03:01 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_ (Post 1581463)
I hadn't realized there was that little change in mean sea level. Over 25 years the change attributed is between 3.7mm to 11.5mm. From what is shown in the news I'd have expected an order of magnitude greater change at least.

That is the change calculated just due to melting of the Antarctic ice cap. The big rise is due to thermal expansion of the water which is why the rise in some tropical areas is so large.

It also takes many years for water from melting ice caps to distribute across all oceans. Water flows quite slowly with a few millimetres of fall across thousands of kilometres of distance.

The_Doc_Man 11-27-2018 07:36 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Given the hoopla about global warming, global climate change, etc., I thought you might want to take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

AccessBlaster 11-27-2018 10:38 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
I saw that episode about a week ago. One lone voice in the wilderness.

Galaxiom 11-27-2018 01:24 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Doc_Man (Post 1600706)
Given the hoopla about global warming, global climate change, etc.,

It isn't "hoopla". It is called science.

The_Doc_Man 11-27-2018 03:38 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
G, you and I think of it differently. When it adheres to strict procedural standards and uses valid mathematical concepts, it is science. When it ignores data, uses models with questionable validity, and tries to use "consensus" rather than strict principles of cause and effect, then it is AT BEST on a fringe of science.

Science is not decided by consensus. The consensus was that the sun orbited the Earth and Galileo was a heretic. We all know how THAT turned out, don't we? Correlation is not proof. It is AT MOST corroborating evidence, but doesn't delve into issues such as common 3rd-event correlation, chance correlation, and coincidence. And when the correlation continues to diverge from reality (i.e. the models in use are continuously over-predicting the effect and are unable to correlate to current reality), there comes a point when you must do a strict analysis of the statistics. There is a computation called the "Standard Error of the Estimate" that tells you when you have crap results. When you have 7-fold (not 7%,... seven-fold) errors, the S.E.E. is not indicative of good data. You have a bad result. You need to step back and ask if that model is any good. And if that kind of divergence is what you get, the answer is NO.

Did you watch the video? I don't care if you don't agree, but the guy is knowledgeable and articulate. He knows whatof he speaks. And his refutations of "consensus" climate science issues need to be heard.

Galaxiom 11-28-2018 03:10 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Doc_Man (Post 1600706)
Given the hoopla about global warming, global climate change, etc., I thought you might want to take a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA5sGtj7QKQ

I have watched it now. What an utter load of rubbish.

Steve R. 11-28-2018 06:10 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Doc_Man (Post 1600706)

The video touched on how facts are being contorted to support "global warming" (or to be politically correct "climate change"). In my particular case, a professional journal that I subscribe to had an article that made the statement (paraphrased): "that Norfolk has experienced 14 inches of relative sea rise so no one can question the impact of climate change". (The article did casually include the word "subsidence" without any follow-up.)

Note that I emphasized the word "relative". I pointed out to the editor that seven (7) inches of that relative sea rise was the result of the land subsiding due to a meteor impact approximately 35 million years ago and that this fact should be made clear to the readership. The editor responded that no clarification was necessary since the focus of the article concerned how Norfolk was/will be adapting to sea level rise.

Consequently, without being transparent and disclosing the full truth, the readership of this journal has been be left with an exaggerated impression of sea level rise and with the misleading implication that Norfolk can be "saved" by simply "solving" global warming. The reality, Norfolk will continue to sink into the ocean.

An obvious question arises from this one example. How many articles written for the general population twist facts to imply the validity of "global warming"?

isladogs 11-28-2018 06:21 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve R. (Post 1600859)
An obvious question arises from this one example. How many articles written for the general population twist facts to imply the validity of "global warming"?

I would say proportionately far fewer than those that distort the facts to refute the evidence for global warming (no quotes needed).

AccessBlaster 11-28-2018 07:00 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Patrick J. Michaels is the director of the Center for the Study of Science at the Cato Institute. Michaels is a past president of the American Association of State Climatologists and was program chair for the Committee on Applied Climatology of the American Meteorological Society. He was a research professor of Environmental Sciences at University of Virginia for 30 years. Michaels was a contributing author and is a reviewer of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2007
You might not like this climatologists point of view but it's hardly "rubbish". If you support an opposing view the condemnations are swift and your grants dry up.

isladogs 11-28-2018 09:30 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
AB:
I'm not denying any of his history that you quoted but its only one side of the story.
Partly to redress the balance, this is from wikpedia
Quote:

Patrick J. Michaels (±1942- ), also known as Pat Michaels, is a largely oil-funded global warming skeptic who argues that global warming models are fatally flawed and, in any event, we should take no action because new technologies will soon replace those that emit greenhouse gases.
Strange that the Fox network didn't mention his full background
Of course I'm sure that the funding he receives from industry has absolutely no impact on his views!

AccessBlaster 11-28-2018 10:15 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
The term "rubbish" originally came from Post#30.

isladogs 11-28-2018 11:15 AM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
It did indeed - I didn't mention that word though I do have some sympathy with that viewpoint.

My take on the video was that it was at best a selective interpretation of the evidence available from someone whose working life has mainly been paid for by the fossil fuel industry. In other words it was little more than propaganda dressed up as objectivity. There was no attempt made by the interviewer to challenge the views expressed or to provide an alternative narrative for debate

For years, the tobacco giants employed scientists who were paid to deny the health issues associated with their industry. As with the Cato Institute (which Patrick Michaels directs) and which is funded by the Koch brothers, the payment was indirect but the links are undeniable.

Of course some models are wrong or inaccurate - they are models of a future.
Some predictions will be too large and others too small.
Nevertheless, the quality/detail of those models have improved significantly over time and will be further refined in the future.

The evidence is clear that there is significant warming globally and that the rate of increase is not declining. Fossil fuel use is a massive contributor to that rise. There are of course feedback loops and the complexity of the data means that at times there may appear to be conflicting evidence. That doesn't negate the overall evidence about global warming.

AccessBlaster 11-28-2018 12:58 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

For years, the tobacco giants employed scientists who were paid to deny the health issues associated with their industry.
That is the crux of the matter isn't it? A scientist can be influenced by the Koch brothers or by George Soros correct?

I would love to see a third party in this country. Until then we have that Hatfield's and McCoy's running the joint.

isladogs 11-28-2018 01:22 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AccessBlaster (Post 1600925)
That is the crux of the matter isn't it? A scientist can be influenced by the Koch brothers or by George Soros correct?

I would love to see a third party in this country. Until then we have that Hatfield's and McCoy's running the joint.

Yes of course they can, particularly those who work for partisan organisations.
However there a very large number of scientists who remain objective and whose conclusions can be trusted

Frothingslosh 11-28-2018 01:40 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
On a side note, as long as the Presidency is determined by majority vote, precisely two political parties will have power. It really can't happen any other way, as a third party would by its very nature split votes off largely from one party existing party rather than both, thereby providing the party that WASN'T splitting its votes an insurmountable advantage.

A four-party system would result in either no one winning the presidency or else in two parties merging into one, with the results I mentioned above.

If you want more than two major parties, then we need to change how the President is elected.

AccessBlaster 11-28-2018 01:52 PM

Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by isladogs (Post 1600930)
However there a very large number of scientists who remain objective and whose conclusions can be trusted

A wise man once said::D
Quote:

Science is not decided by consensus.


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