Immigration (1 Viewer)

jsanders

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Kraj said:
I whole-heartedly agree. In the 'Cooler, there's nothing wrong with hijacked threads, off-topic comments, and other silliness; but the politics forum was created for the express purpose of giving people a place to hold serious and earnest discussions. Forcing threads to stay on topic would never be detrimental to that purpose.

................yup
 

jeremie_ingram

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Only 2 cents....

Well, for once I full agree with you Pat. You have stated the case very well. What I feel everyone is overlooking is the whole of the statement "Illegal Alien". The first of the two words says it all. These individuals are here illegally and are no better that any other person who has violated federal law. Seems many forget that fact in lieu of the sympathetic view of how they are searching for a better life. It is truly at the cost of the legal citizens, and I fully agree that they only have unwanted jobs because of the reasons stated. If we magically eliminated all illegal immigration overnight, several companies would go out of business but would the need for those services disappear? Granted the costs for those services would increase exponentially, but this would level the playing field completely. Those who profit from the illegal immigrants would be the one to first suffer the loss, but eventually it would benefit the overall society. Once those jobs are filled with citizens of this country, the unemployment rate would drop and tax revenue would increase. Sounds like a win win situation.
I say to those who champion the cause of the illegal immigrants, fight the good fight for them in their country. Don’t attempt to sway the population into ponying up everything here that they should have a born right to in their own country.
I have nothing against anyone who enters this country via legal channels. My family at one time (1701) came to these shores in hopes of a brighter future. I feel that anyone can come and try their best. I have seen the American dream through the eyes of friends that have come to this country, and it really makes you see the opportunity that exists. It is odd how we who have it are the last to see it.
Will this problem be eliminated? Never, because it is too profitable to those who make the decisions. If you ever look to politicians to solve problems, you are looking to the wrong people. They are there to deal with problems, and if they were to solve them all they would no longer have purpose.
 

selenau837

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jsanders said:
this is the politcal room we are allowed to argue here

Yes, I see that now J. I didn't pay attention to where it was at. My deepest apologies. I have made my amends by deleting my post in this thread.

Ok, here is my serious take on the immigration problem.

I personally tired of people coming into our country who instantly get on welfare and food stamps and medicaid and what ever else free stuff they can get on. However I as a single mom stuggling to take care of her family can't get a damn dime for anything. I've been working since I was 16 and have put in more money into the system they those how crossed the boarded and instantly recieved help. I find that VERY unfair. I feel if you decide to come into our country, you are doing it of your on free will and you outa take care of yourself. Not expect OUR government to take care of YOU! This is not 'Mama's' house for you to come in and be treated as a guest. And have everything given to you. Once you cross that boarder you are 'Family' and you are to take care of yourself.

Bitter I am, but I can't help it. I've seen it happening more and more here in SC. I am being the minority in my state. No I am not raciest, I am just jaded.

I shall stop now before I stick my foot in my mouth and I unable to get it out.
 

FoFa

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Selena is right. It seems to be the fact that they come here and then expect the USA taxpayer to support them. Or they come here just to have a baby so it is an American Citizen. I understand they want more money, etc. I heard just today one of the reason of all the protests is because one of the changes on the table is to make it a FEDRAL offense to be an illegal alien (not sure what that means exactly, and I thought it was fedral). I don't have that big of an issue with them working here, just illegally. Maybe we need a special work visa, say renewable every 3 months, that lets them work and stay here. But I think they should also learn English in the process.
 

NJudson

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FoFa said:
Selena is right. It seems to be the fact that they come here and then expect the USA taxpayer to support them. Or they come here just to have a baby so it is an American Citizen.

So if an illegal woman had her baby in the U.S. would it be U.S. citizen or not? :confused:

FoFa said:
Maybe we need a special work visa, say renewable every 3 months, that lets them work and stay here.

Well, isn't that part of the problem though? Aren't the temporary work visa's being abused and companies and such found loopholes to exploit them? seems to me that virtually no matter what would get established people would figure out a way to abuse the program.


FoFa said:
But I think they should also learn English in the process.

Agreed. I don't know that the answer is, but I think the government should mandate a certain level of English to be learned after a certain period of time has expired since arriving in the U.S.
 

FoFa

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NJudson said:
So if an illegal woman had her baby in the U.S. would it be U.S. citizen or not?
As I understand it, the baby would be an American citizen. This also alows the parents to get a green card so they can "stay" in country with their American child.
 

NJudson

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FoFa said:
As I understand it, the baby would be an American citizen. This also alows the parents to get a green card so they can "stay" in country with their American child.


Hmmmm. Some how a part of me feels really uneasy about that. Could this be yet another one of those little loopholes in the system or was this deliberate? My guess is this is a loophole. It makes me wonder if the scenario is reciprocal if an American woman would be illegal in another country, would the situation be the same?
 

Pat Hartman

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Different countries have different rules but I think that the US is in the minority. Most countries do not automatically confer citizenship on children born to foreign nationals regardless of their legal status. My suggestion is to not change the spirit of our generous law but only to prevent some misuse of it. By requiring the mother to be in the country legally at least, you eliminate the urge to instantly get pregnant that comes across many illegal women or to get on a plane and come for a “short” visit. I would really like to make the law even more restrictive so that the mother needs to be at least a permanent resident already or married to an American. The problem with these ANCHOR babies as they are called, is that entire extended families gain residency because of them. So, with one baby, we get the mother, father, other siblings, grandparents, and grandchildren as well. Once the grandparents are here, it is now easier to get their other children visas so we now have aunts, uncles, their children, etc.

I am somewhat familiar with the Arab view on citizenship having lived in Kuwait. I have discussed it in other posts where I mention it because I consider the Arab view on nationality to be one of the major contributors to the unrest in the Middle East. Only children born of Kuwaiti FATHERS are citizens of Kuwait. It doesn't matter where they are born, only that their acknowledged father is Kuwaiti. A child of a Kuwaiti woman and a non-Kuwaiti man would not be a Kuwaiti citizen.

Rich - it's funny that you should be offended by my comment on hijacking threads. Are you feeling guilty?
I thought your country championed free speech, sounds like it's only applicable when it suits!
Free speech is certainly welcome. I would even love to hear your opinion on the topic because your country is having similar problems. They're not as severe because, it's a lttle harder to cross the Channel than the Rio Grande or a few miles of desert, but if you want to engage in meaningless drivel, please do it elsewhere.
Originally Posted by FoFa
Maybe we need a special work visa, say renewable every 3 months, that lets them work and stay here.
Without enforcement, no one goes home. We already have similar programs. We have countless students who have over-stayed their visas. That's an easy way for people to enter the US legally. They just need to apply to and get accepted by an American college. No one even checks to see if they attend.

Back in 1986 (I think), our congress gave amnesty to almost 3 million people who had entered the country illegally. The American public really doesn't have the heart to send these poor people back to where they came from and the Congress promised to enforce immigration laws and that this would be the end of the problem. Well, here we are 20 years later and we see what rewarding those lawbreakers got us. DO NOT let your representatives do it again. Now we have 20 million people that no one has the heart to send home but the numbers have gotten so large that they are affecting the very fabric of American life. That’s why they are so much in the news these days. NAFTA was supposed to fix Mexico's problems so that Mexicans wouldn't cross our border illegally because they'd have living wage jobs at home. Well, NAFTA actually depressed wages in Mexico - what a surprise. So now we have CAFTA which will allow us to do the same thing in Central America, and the free trade bills for South America - I don't remember their names but they all have the same elements of NAFTA and CAFTA and they won't work any better.

I don’t have all the answers but we need to get our priorities in order and start enforcing our existing laws. Congress keeps scrambling to make new laws but I don’t understand why they can’t force enforcement of those we already have. I am absolutely against ANY guest worker program. We have to enforce our borders. We have to fine people who hire illegal aliens. In some cities they build day labor centers to make it easy for illegals to find work!! The IRS needs to identify illegal uses of SSNs. Identity theft should be a felony. But, I would not make illegally crossing the border a felony as one of the present bills suggests. I would rather make hiring illegal aliens a felony. If there are no jobs to be found here, they will go home and do what they should have done in the first place. Fix their own country. Don’t try to usurp ours just because we’re nice people.

If you don't want to be an American - Go home. If you want to be an American, you should be waiving an American flag, not a Mexican one!!
 

ColinEssex

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Pat Hartman said:
We have to enforce our borders.
Its interesting you say this. My brother-in-law had to stopover in LA airport en route to Costa Rica. Even though he (and wife) were not leaving the airport, they had masses of forms to fill in and were photographed and searched. He said he was made to feel a criminal by the US customs / immigration. Apparently many other UK citizens with him vowed never to set foot on US soil again.

I appreciate the need for security to a degree, but tell me - why on earth would a "baddie terrorist" go via LA airport with all that security when it appears one can stroll over the Mexican or Canadian border with ease.

If you don't want to be an American - Go home. If you want to be an American, you should be waiving an American flag, not a Mexican one!!

Pat - are your anti immigation feelings the same for non Mexicans? and how do you feel about people with dual citizenship.

If you lived in the UK and became a British citizen, would you cast aside all things American? would you congregate where other Americans are? like a themed pub or club?

In the UK even though (say) an Italian may have British citizenship, we would think it odd that they would try to be "British". We would accept the fact they are still Italian and always will be.

Col
 
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NJudson

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ColinEssex said:
If you lived in the UK and became a British citizen, would you cast aside all things American? would you congregate where other Americans are? like a themed pub or club?

While I can't speak for Pat, I think you're taking her words out of context. I don't think she's suggesting immigrants give up their heritage, but rather if they choose to become an American citizen then they need to assimilate to the American culture and laws. They can still be proud of whereever they came from and celebrate this and that for all I care, but when they refuse or fail to abide by these rules then this disrupts the American economy and so on and so forth.
 

ColinEssex

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Yes thanks NJ. I misinterpreted it maybe.

We have "British" citizens here who were originally from (for example) India and they make no effort to learn English and they effectively live an Indian life in an Indian community whilst accepting the benefits of British nationality - free health care, social security benefits etc etc.

However, I think I'm still confused over the extremely strict security at US airports and the apparent ease of travel over the US land borders. Thats just the way it looks anyway from an outside view - I may be missing something. For example, our borders are small, I would imagine the US / Mexican one is very difficult to police in its entirity???

Col
 

jamesmor

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I'm not a fan of illegal immigrants for two reasons.

1. They expect us to give them EVERYTHING and do nothing in return.

2. They don't respect the U.S.A.

I've worked with illegal immigrants on various occasions (they redily admitted they were illegal). They treat U.S. citizens like complete and total crap, even those who have immigrated the correct way.

I've got an uncle who's from Cozumel Mexico, and he says that we have too much illegal immigration (he came over the right way). Now he still celebrates some of the Hispanic holiday's but he's the first one to say that since he moved to the U.S. he should embrace our culture too.

I'd go into what I'd do to stop illegal immigration, but I don't have a flame retardent suit and would rather not be banned from the forums.
 

NJudson

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ColinEssex said:
However, I think I'm still confused over the extremely strict security at US airports and the apparent ease of travel over the US land borders. Thats just the way it looks anyway from an outside view - I may be missing something. For example, our borders are small, I would imagine the US / Mexican one is very difficult to police in its entirity???/QUOTE]

Well, you're not alone on that one. I think after Sept 11, 2001 we put forth more aggressive screening measures in airports and such and this was something that could be done with relative ease since we have a pretty firm control over the airports. The U.S.-Mexican border on the other hand is so vast an area we simply do not have the resources (or at least aren't putting forth the resources) to control this area. That is partly why there is such a disparity between airport security and border security.
 

NJudson

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jamesmor said:
1. They expect us to give them EVERYTHING and do nothing in return.

2. They don't respect the U.S.A.

I've worked with illegal immigrants on various occasions (they redily admitted they were illegal). They treat U.S. citizens like complete and total crap, even those who have immigrated the correct way.

I know a few police officers and some of them will go on to say that the worst criminals they have to deal with are hispanics. Like Jamesmor said, many of them simply do not respect Americans and many will play it off like they don't speak english when some of them do. I realize that is a big generalization and I'm not implying all hispanics are illegal or all are bad, but from what I'm told the hispanic ethnicity tends to be "more difficult" to deal with statistically.
 

selenau837

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Another problem I have is that alot of the jobs are requiring their employees to speak spanish.

There are several jobs I was more than qualified for, but because I couldn't speak spanish I was denied the job. That reason alone is why I got out of customer service. I shouldn't be required to learn their language to accodate them. I am an American, I speak English. When you come out my country you should learn my language, not me learn yours just to accomodate you.

It's just getting more and more frustrating becuase even my youngest child is forced to take spanish in elementry school. I wasn't required to take a forgien language until High School and then there was a choice.

I just find it a problem that one day my child will be able to speak a language that I can't understand and I didn't teach it to her.

This is just my gripe for the day.
 

MrsGorilla

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selenau837 said:
It's just getting more and more frustrating becuase even my youngest child is forced to take spanish in elementry school.I just find it a problem that one day my child will be able to speak a language that I can't understand and I didn't teach it to her.

My mother-in-law is Mexican and is teaching my daughter to speak Spanish. By the way, my m-i-l's parents came to this country legally, even though they didn't speak any English but my m-i-l and all of her siblings were all bilingual of course.

Anyhoo, I worry the same thing about wondering if Emily will learn to speak Spanish and I won't understand her. So I'm considering dusting off the old Spanish book myself. :D
 

Kraj

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I agree with the gripe, but on the other hand being introduced to another language when she's young will give her a huge advantage later on. Most countries with decent education systems teach multiple languages. It's a good thing.
 
R

Rich

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Kraj said:
I agree with the gripe,.

Which one, there are many on this thread?

but on the other hand being introduced to another language when she's young will give her a huge advantage later on.
Again though, which one ?
 

Pat Hartman

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ColinEssex said:
Pat - are your anti immigration feelings the same for non Mexicans? and how do you feel about people with dual citizenship.

If you lived in the UK and became a British citizen, would you cast aside all things American? would you congregate where other Americans are? like a themed pub or club?

In the UK even though (say) an Italian may have British citizenship, we would think it odd that they would try to be "British". We would accept the fact they are still Italian and always will be. Col
Airports have gotten so annoying that I don't fly unless I absolutely have to. I don't blame foreign tourists for complaining. I'm sure it is worse for them and I sympathize. Unfortunately airports have taken the brunt of our security awareness since the 9/11 bad guys entered the US that way and they hijacked planes. As long as there are people in this world who will hijack planes, we are stuck with airport security.

I would like to clear up one point though - I am NOT anti-immigration. We are all immigrants here or the descendents of immigrants. The problem is the latest wave of immigrants is largely illegal. That means that they simply crossed the border without authorization. Think of it as someone entering your house without permission just because your door was unlocked. Unfortunately, the illegals come largely from the same place so it seems like racism. We have had very good relations with both our northern and southern neighbors so in the past there has never been a need to secure the borders. Our border with Mexico is over 2,000 miles long and our border with Canada is over 3,000 miles long. There were token checkpoints at major roads but people pretty much came and went as they pleased. In fact there is at least one small town that straddles the northern border. On one side of the street, you are in Canada and on the other you are in the US. That worked well for hundreds of years. The problem now is the economic problems in Mexico have gotten so bad along with the corruption that the poor Mexicans have all decided to move north. A large country such as the US can absorb a number of immigrants of all types each year but we are being overwhelmed with uneducated, poverty stricken people with large numbers of children. They are disrupting our school systems because they don't want to learn English. They expect to be taught in Spanish. They expect the government to deal with them in Spanish also and because of their huge numbers, they've pretty much succeeded in making the southern border states at least, bilingual. I'll bet your Italian immigrant example doesn't expect you to speak Italian or to have tax forms printed in Italian so he can read them. We also have large numbers of illegal immigrants from China. These immigrants don’t demand to have government forms printed in Mandarin. They don’t demand that school principals learn Mandarin so they can speak to the parents about their children. They are much more interested in assimilating.

I don't expect immigrants to cast aside their heritage. Where would I get Mexican food? I love walking around the Chinatowns in large cities. The odors are wonderful and the architecture is exotic. The general pattern for immigrants is that the immigrants themselves learn enough English to get by but their children go to American schools and are taught in English and so become fluent. The second generation is usually bilingual because they communicate with their parents in the language of their home country and communicate with every one else in English. I have a cute story about this. One of my best friends was from Liege Belgium and her native language was French. We had children about the same time and when they were about 2 I was babysitting one day and I heard the bedroom door opening and closing. I went to investigate and Celine was standing there saying "Open the door" - "Ferme la Port". Hope I spelled that properly. Celine spoke French to Lucy (her mother) and English to everyone else. Children are very adept at picking up language and I think it is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to teach regular subjects in Spanish in American public schools. I have no problem with developing strong English as a second language programs for both children and adults. Learning the language will help people assimilate and enable them to get better jobs.

and how do you feel about people with dual citizenship.
I was under the impression that when you take American citizenship you had to renounce your allegiance to your birth country. The only people with actual dual citizenship were children under the age of majority and when they reached their majority they were expected to make a choice. But I’m not so sure that this is still the case. I don’t think that there can be room for divided allegiance. In any event, no one forces you to become a citizen. You can be a permanent resident for ever. It’s a little like marriage. When you get married, you give up your old boyfriends/girlfriends. So, if you want to become an American citizen, that’s what you are. You’re not Australian-American or Mexican-American. Canadians who have become US citizens don’t call themselves Canadian-American, nor do the Brits.
If you lived in the UK and became a British citizen, would you cast aside all things American? would you congregate where other Americans are? like a themed pub or club?
I am thinking of giving up my American citizenship. Would Britain have me? I might have to go to Micky-D’s every once in a while to get my French-fry fix but otherwise I wouldn’t feel the need to join an “American-British” club to be with my former countrymen. I am very susceptible to accents and when I lived in Kuwait for a year, almost everyone I associated with spoke with an English accent. The Kuwaitis and Indians and other Arabs were all taught English by British teachers and so they spoke English with a British accent. By the time I came home, I spoke English with a British accent I had the same problem when I lived in Tennessee. I spoke English with a southern accent. I am so susceptible to the southern accent, every time I spend more than a few hours with my friend Sue, I end up with a drawl.
I’m watching Lou Dobbs on CNN as I’m writing this and they just reported that we have 40,000 illegal Chinese immigrants in custody and don’t seem to be able to convince Beijing to take them back. What should we do with them? The Chinese have a worse trip than the Mexicans because usually the Chinese come by sea, hidden in shipping containers and a large number of them get caught when the ship is unloaded and a large number die en route.
Someone asked where I get my information – well a lot of it comes from the Lou Dobbs show on CNN. You can read transcripts about 4 hours after the 6PM evening (Eastern Daylight Savings Time) broadcast if you miss the show.
 

Len Boorman

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Have been reading this thread and finally decided to join in.

Now I am not against Immigration as such but to my way of thinking if I decided to move to another country then I would expect
1) To learn the language. I may also decide that my children become multi lingual since that would be advantageous

2) Understand and accept the new culture. How much I immerse into this culture may vary.

3) Undertand and abide by the laws and regulation of the country.

Okay so I am getting on a bit now and these may seem old fashioned views but I think it is precisely these points where immigrants both legal and otherwise generally fail.

Immigration in my view is simple to define from the legal point of view.

Did you enter the country via a recognised point of entry.
Did you (at the point of entry) apply for political asylem if applicable.

Answer No to either question and you are defined as illegal and immediate removal from the country will follow.

All legal immigrants are subject to British law. Any serious law breaking within 10 years of entry and status is revoked and eportation follows.

Support for immigrants will be given for a period of time but self sufficiency will be expected within a reasonable period, Failure to do so again revokes status.

This determines that the immigrant must have something to offer to the country as well as vice versa.

Len

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Got interrupted

So what is the problem

Many nationals see the benefits for which they have contributed handed out to those who have no intention of contributing or integrating, They see crime rising and in a large number of cases these crimes are committed by immigrants. The UK goals have a far greater population of "immigrant" nationalities than natives brits.
This all leads to racial discontent and civil unrest and here we are in the circle again.

Until Governments actually do the job of Governing for the people (to coin a phrase) there will be no change.

Government individuals are concerned with themselves and their job prospects and will therefore do what assists their career, The same happens in business in a way but in that situation you have to clearly achieve results that are to the benefit of the company.

Successful companies will at times impose unpleasant and unpopular measures. Governments do not really do what is wanted because they would become unpopular and next election they fear they will be out of office.

The world is changing and we are becomming a namby pamby bunch of countries that are too concerned with the likes of an individual rather than the bigger picture of the Country

If it is not good for this country then we ain't doing it would very much be my policy.

L
 
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