Scottish Independence (1 Viewer)

Steve R. · Sep 19, 2014

It's over, for at least now. No divorce from the United Kingdom.

Alc · Sep 19, 2014

So, should I be congratulating Scotland or offering my condolences?
Fingers crosses, the fact that the vote even happened will push a few changes through, in Scotland's favour.

I followed the reporting of the results with interest and have to (shamefully) admit that I had no idea how much of the population is concentrated into certain small areas. I was aware of this in places like Australia, where the geography and climate make it more understandable, but didn't think of it with Scotland.

It was only clear when I looked at the map of yes vs no voting.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/how-scotland-voted-map-of-referendum-results-1.2014138
In terms of land area, almost the entire country said 'No' (28 out of 32 areas). Zoom out on the map a bit and you can hardly see the 'Yes' votes. However, it couldn't have been much closer in terms of the actual population: NO (55.3%), YES (44.7%).

Uncle Gizmo · Sep 19, 2014

My heart was warmed by, I believe an American, who posted words to the effect that we truly have a democracy if we allow part of our country the option to vote on whether it should remain or not.

I understand well, I probably don't understand in any significant intellectual way. Continuing... I understand that certain state's of America have wanted to secede (is that the correct term) and I don't believe it is allowed?

ColinEssex · Sep 19, 2014

Alc said:
So, should I be congratulating Scotland or offering my condolences?
Fingers crosses, the fact that the vote even happened will push a few changes through, in Scotland's favour.
.

Scotland has it bloody easy already, subsidised by the rest of the UK.

They get free prescriptions, the English have to pay £8 per item.
They get free university places, the English have to pay £9,000 per year. So most English students leave uni with around £30,000 debt to pay off.
They get free care home residency when needed, the English have to sell their house and spend most hard earned savings on it.
They get more per head spent on them (than the english) to support infrastructure etc.
They already have their own parliament.

And still they moan on and on, why don't they just be thankful they do a whole lot better than the rest of the UK.

Col

Rabbie · Sep 20, 2014

ColinEssex said:
Scotland has it bloody easy already, subsidised by the rest of the UK.

They get free prescriptions, the English have to pay £8 per item.
They get free university places, the English have to pay £9,000 per year. So most English students leave uni with around £30,000 debt to pay off.
They get free care home residency when needed, the English have to sell their house and spend most hard earned savings on it.
They get more per head spent on them (than the english) to support infrastructure etc.
They already have their own parliament.

And still they moan on and on, why don't they just be thankful they do a whole lot better than the rest of the UK.

Col

It can be argued that Scotland has obtained these concessions by pressing for them in a determined way. Perhaps the rest of the UK should look and learn rather than whinge about it. Scotland has only used the democratic process and not resorted to terrorist threats or action

ColinEssex · Sep 20, 2014

Rabbie said:
It can be argued that Scotland has obtained these concessions by pressing for them in a determined way. Perhaps the rest of the UK should look and learn rather than whinge about it. Scotland has only used the democratic process and not resorted to terrorist threats or action

Whine about it? What a joke, the Scottish haven't stopped whinging since they joined the union 300 odd years ago.

Col

Rx_ · Sep 21, 2014

An article about Scotland Referendum: Who Voted How and Why?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-19/scotland-referendum-who-voted-how-and-why

Quick summary of the details of Lord Ashcroft Polls:

Voters aged 16-17: YES: 71%; NO: 29%
Voters aged 65+: YES: 27%; NO: 73%

Statement: how will vote look like in 5, 10 or 15 years when today's 17 year olds are Scotland's prime demographic?
In general, the results is something that is actually amazing from my perspective.

Here in the US, the old receiving all the benefits are willing to eat the young. Like an H.G. Wells book on time travel, the young have no realization of their situation. The National Debt and unfunded liabilities have grown to a point that it is absolutely mathematically impossible to pay off short of devaluation 200:1 of the USD. The old will vote for unlimited money printing being accelerated just so they can enjoy the last few years. It is doubtful that 1 in 100 youth here have any realization about much of anything. The recent survey show that over 80% of graduates of government educated high schools can point out Great Britain on a world map. One comedian recently said they can't point out Great Britain on a map of Great Britain.

The fact that both sides had actual reasons for their vote would be refreshing to see in our country. For that, I admire the Scottish.

Steve R. · Sep 21, 2014

Rx_ said:
Quick summary of the details of Lord Ashcroft Polls:

Voters aged 16-17: YES: 71%; NO: 29%

Voters aged 65+: YES: 27%; NO: 73%

Statement: how will vote look like in 5, 10 or 15 years when today's 17 year olds are Scotland's prime demographic?

The results may not change. Based on sociology, as one gets older they move from idealism towards practicality.

Voters in the 16-17 age group are transitioning into adults, leaving home, and would relish their independence. An independent Scotland being viewed as an extension of their independence.

Voters in the 65+ age group have become the "establishment". An independent Scotland would create risk and uncertainty for them. Maintaining the current political structure would be viewed as beneficial even if not ideal.

My comments above are simplistic in the sense that they are based on generic sociological trends as one ages. A lot depends on how the Scots perceive their situation. The 65+ age group could flip for independence given certain political events. It would be interesting to see what a future pole would disclose.

Mile-O · Sep 22, 2014

ColinEssex said:
Scotland has it bloody easy already, subsidised by the rest of the UK.

They get free prescriptions, the English have to pay £8 per item.
They get free university places, the English have to pay £9,000 per year. So most English students leave uni with around £30,000 debt to pay off.
They get free care home residency when needed, the English have to sell their house and spend most hard earned savings on it.
They get more per head spent on them (than the english) to support infrastructure etc.
They already have their own parliament.

And still they moan on and on, why don't they just be thankful they do a whole lot better than the rest of the UK.

It's precisely because we have our own parliament and they work in our interests that we get free presciptions, tuition, etc.

The claim of Scotland being subsidised is untrue as Scotland generates far more cash than it is allowed to spend. All tax receipts go back to Westiminster. Our parliament then gets a portion of our money back (as a grant) which the government are free to spend as they see fit. Hence why the current SNP party feel the need, in ever decreasing budgets*, to find money to deliver these core items.

* The money is ever decreasing as it's based on a public expenditure in England. As England continues to privatise, public spending need not be as large, which then affects the money given to Scotland (and Wales & Northern Ireland).

Brianwarnock · Sep 22, 2014

The claim of Scotland being subsidised is untrue as Scotland generates far more cash than it is allowed to spend.

Of course it does some expenditure is UK wide, defence being the most obvious one, perhaps an Independent Scotland would have decided to have no defence.

Brian

Mile-O · Sep 22, 2014

Brianwarnock said:
Of course it does some expenditure is UK wide, defence being the most obvious one, perhaps an Independent Scotland would have decided to have no defence.

Of course it would have hard a defence force. Just not one backed up by nuclear weapons.

Brianwarnock · Sep 22, 2014

Mile-O said:
Of course it would have hard a defence force. Just not one backed up by nuclear weapons.

The point I was making was that you could not expect to have all your money returned as some would go to UK wide expenses, defence being one example, the nuclear argument is a separate issue. If the referendum makes Westminster and indeed all of the UK think seriously about the future in both domestic and international terms it will have been useful.

Brian

Rabbie · Sep 22, 2014

ColinEssex said:
Whine about it? What a joke, the Scottish haven't stopped whinging since they joined the union 300 odd years ago.

Col

And when you see what Scotland now provides for its residents it has been pretty effective. And all achieved through the democratic process without resorting to violence

Brianwarnock · Sep 22, 2014

I wonder how it would work without the Barnett Formula.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...BARNETT-architect-hated-subsidy-Scotland.html

Brian

Fifty2One · Sep 22, 2014

Perhaps the whiny UK should have their own referendum to separate from Scotland if they have an unfair advantage over the rest of the union.

AnthonyGerrard · Sep 22, 2014

Mile-O said:
It's precisely because we have our own parliament and they work in our interests that we get free presciptions, tuition, etc.

The claim of Scotland being subsidised is untrue as Scotland generates far more cash than it is allowed to spend. All tax receipts go back to Westiminster. Our parliament then gets a portion of our money back (as a grant) which the government are free to spend as they see fit. Hence why the current SNP party feel the need, in ever decreasing budgets*, to find money to deliver these core items.

* The money is ever decreasing as it's based on a public expenditure in England. As England continues to privatise, public spending need not be as large, which then affects the money given to Scotland (and Wales & Northern Ireland).

Are you argueing that Scotland raises more so it should be able to spend more?

Uncle Gizmo · Sep 26, 2014

This interesting article has a section the succession of Catalonia from Spain ...

The Outspoken Spanish Nun Who's Made Herself A Political Force http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...anish-nun-whos-made-herself-a-political-force via DuckDuckGo for Android

Thought it was relevant to this thread.

Rabbie · Oct 11, 2014

AnthonyGerrard said:
Are you argueing that Scotland raises more so it should be able to spend more?

it is a valid argument. I have heard Londoners using the same argument in an attempt to get more cash.

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