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Old 10-04-2006, 05:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinEssex
Also, I questioned about the Amish preaching about "avoiding modern things" - but it seems they can't really do without them. If they pay their way then they are entitled, but then why bother to live in the 18th century? it all seems a bit weird to me.

Get out of the bed on the wrong side today Kenny babe? (again)
Col
I am not really sure the Armish use much modern stuff, as said previously there are some groups who do not have electricity. Yes they do use police resources etc but they are hardly a deain on society. The would cult is a little strong as they do not force their views on others and members are free to leave the group (although I guess there is family pressure).

The debate as to why there has been a recent surge in school shooting is interesting, and remember we in the UK are not immune to these dispite our much stricter gun laws. In the last 20 years I can think of at least two examples...

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Old 10-04-2006, 06:14 AM   #17
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There's a Your Say section on the BBC site about US (lack of) gun control. You have a lot of frickin' idiots over there who banter on about how owning a gun is a freedom under the Second Amendment.

Of course, with a proper crime fighting force, there's little need for Americans to be making a posse, vigilante squad, or "militia" any more and so such actions are surely unlawful. So, given that you no longer need guns, why not just amend the constitution again?

It can't be amended again, because the right to bear arms is considered sacred amongst Americans. Why? You don't need guns. It's a hangover from pioneer days. Your media (at least, what I've seen) raves about terrorism threats as if there is actually much need for concern, when the biggest threat to the safety of American citizens is their antiquated constitution, as cases such as the three this week, Columbine, Washington sniper, etc. are proving.

There are those who say that if the guy had been disallowed guns then he would have still managed to obtain them, whether it be from the black market, family, or theft. But, by having proper controls in place, nutjobs like him are restricted in the avenues they can approach in order to obtain such weapons.

Notions such as borrowing from family are negated by making gun ownership illegal, since the family wouldn't have any guns to lend. Stealing, with no guns around, would have him having to thieve from the police, the military, or gangsters. I doubt many would fancy this proposition.

Regarding the black market, I don't buy that people could easily find themselves guns there. Prices, no doubt, would rise since they wouldn't be so easily available. To get such things on a black market, you would no doubt need connections to find them. Places aren't exactly going to have 'Smith & Son, Black Marketeers' above their shop.

And some of the weapons you guys have on sale too, what purpose do they serve in the public's hands? If you must have some sort of weapons then what's wrong with tranquilisers and stun guns? Do you need automatic machine guns, etc. ?

The guy had a lot of weaponry. Since I'm not au fait with the procedures to procure a gun, can someone give answers to the following questions:
  • What psychological checks are there in place for one seeking to obtain a gun?
  • What's the turnaround in application to receipt?
  • Do you have to give reasons why you need one?
  • Is there a set period where re-assessment of either the weapon or the person is necessary?
  • Are gun ownership records federal knowledge, or is governed on a state by state basis?
  • What's the legal age for gun ownership? Does it differ by state?
  • Is there a maximum amount of weaponry that one can own?
  • How much do bullets cost?

While one's psychological problems are an obvious factor in making someone decide to perform such an atrocity, you can't help feel that the constant macho image pushed by American media (Hollywood, magazines, gangster rap, etc.) is certainly something that needs remedied. It's one root that leads to low self-esteem amongst such people.
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Old 10-04-2006, 06:44 AM   #18
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Nice one Mile-O

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Old 10-04-2006, 08:29 AM   #19
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I thought SJ was going to do pretty good until he lowered the post to Col's level right at the start with the 'frickin' idiots' thing. And that pretty much revealed the hate tone for the remainder of the post and it lost my interest...

'frickin' - Odd word coming from a guy of SJ's caliber.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenHigg
'frickin' - Odd word coming from a guy of SJ's caliber.
I'm beginning to wonder if they are not jealouse of us having guns, since they can't any more. After all, even if they say, saw those London bombers before they blew up, what would they do? Nothing I guess, where here since "pretty much according to Rich/Col" every man, woman and child is armed, we could blow them away before they had a chance to explode them.
Yep, green with envy I am begining to think.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoFa
I'm beginning to wonder if they are not jealouse of us having guns, since they can't any more. After all, even if they say, saw those London bombers before they blew up, what would they do? Nothing I guess, where here since "pretty much according to Rich/Col" every man, woman and child is armed, we could blow them away before they had a chance to explode them.
Yep, green with envy I am begining to think.
I'm actually open to discussing gun's, etc. with someone who isn't rude and haughty…
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:09 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinEssex
Apparently they don't like modern things and do everything to avoid it, they live this weird 18th century existence. They worship some kind of god, so presumably are some kind of crank religious cult.
Why are you using the murder of children to attack a benign culture?

Are you that desperate for attention?

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Old 10-04-2006, 09:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
I'm actually open to discussing gun's, etc. with someone who isn't rude and haughty…
I have said on this board before that whilst I believe that “the right to bear arms” causes immense problems in the US, I do not believe the almost paranoid laws in the UK that make it illegal to even look at a gun, and the attitude that if you want to own a gun means that physiologically you should not own a gun are not the way to go.

The problem I see in the US for gun control, is that it as seen as a right and any sensible control on a device that is designed to kill (i.e. stringent checks on individuals wanting to own a gun, limitation of fire power, forcing people to keep guns in a secure environment etc) are seen as an infringement of that right and are fought on principle rather the arguments themselves.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:44 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenHigg
I thought SJ was going to do pretty good until he lowered the post to Col's level right at the start with the 'frickin' idiots' thing. And that pretty much revealed the hate tone for the remainder of the post and it lost my interest...
Hmmm... well to be fair SJ wasn't explicit as to whether he meant everyone who fervently suports the Second Ammendment is an idiot or rather that there simlpy are a lot of idiots who do. The former is certainly combative, the latter is a simple truth.

Personally, I dislike guns and I think the Second Amendment is a relic. On the other hand, you can't just assume a major political and social policy that works in one country will work in another. I would imagine the logistics alone of keeping guns off an island is much simpler and easier than it is for a country 100 times that island's size that also shares a practically open border with a country that is happy to host just about anything for smuggling. Is there any reason to believe we'd be any more successful in preventing access to guns than we are to drugs?

Furthermore, attempts to control guns within the U.S. have showed no sign of actually doing anything to improve the crime rate. For example, Chicago city ordinances basically bans guns. You cannot legally purchase or register a handgun or assault weapon in Chicago. Period. Yes, that is pretty much a blatant violation of the Second Ammendment. And what is the result? Chicago has the highest homicide rates in the country; gun violence is worse here than any other part of the country.

So, relic or not if we're going to ammend the Constitution and remove civil liberties, I'd say we should be damn sure it's the right thing to do. And we just don't have the evidence to make a convincing argument.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msp
I have said on this board before that whilst I believe that “the right to bear arms” causes immense problems in the US, I do not believe the almost paranoid laws in the UK that make it illegal to even look at a gun, and the attitude that if you want to own a gun means that physiologically you should not own a gun are not the way to go.

The problem I see in the US for gun control, is that it as seen as a right and any sensible control on a device that is designed to kill (i.e. stringent checks on individuals wanting to own a gun, limitation of fire power, forcing people to keep guns in a secure environment etc) are seen as an infringement of that right and are fought on principle rather the arguments themselves.
I would say that I pretty much agree with you both fronts. But I would like to make two other statements. 1. Trying to do a one gun law for a city vs. the western wilderness is hard. 2. Keeping people from harming one another by passing laws is addressing the symptom. It make have a limited or short term impact, but the root causes still exist.

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Old 10-04-2006, 09:50 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinEssex
We've been hearing about yet more killings in US schools last week and this week.

In this weeks American school killings episode, the killings are in an Amish community.ref (I'd never heard of it before)

Apparently they don't like modern things and do everything to avoid it, they live this weird 18th century existence. They worship some kind of god, so presumably are some kind of crank religious cult.

No doubt they become very voiciferous about "outside" interference, they preach about "isolation from the modern world" - so how come they use modern hospitals, use modern fire engines, modern police etc? it seems a case of "we don't want anything to do with you, till we need you" type of scenario. I would have thought they can't have it both ways, its either one thing or the other. I'll bet they don't pay taxes or any national contributions.

Col
Oh my gosh Col,

I haven’t read the rest of the post yet, but I just had to respond.

I am glad to see you have proven me wrong at last.

I thought there was nothing you knew less about than main stream America. Well you have certainly outdone yourself this time.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:56 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by jsanders
Oh my gosh Col,

I haven’t read the rest of the post yet, but I just had to respond.

I am glad to see you have proven me wrong at last.

I thought there was nothing you knew less about then main stream America. Well you have certainly outdone yourself this time.
How dare you! After all he get's his information from a government owned and operated yet unbiased ppv BBC, supermarket tabloids and Green Acre re-runs.
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Old 10-04-2006, 10:42 AM   #28
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Lightbulb "A" for effort...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenHigg
That doesn't suprise me.

Actually, I thought this was an good topic to discuss. Shame your typical blanket hate stuff causes most of us on this side of the pond to not have any interest in chatting about it with you...
(A+) for effort Ken but as you've said, pointless to pursue because some people (always the same ones) have their own depictions of everything, throw blankets over every subject even though we try to give them credit for being more intelligent, to no avail, and are truly the most intolerant persons I've ever run across...to each his own but, dark, dreary, and hateful nevertheless!

They take plenty of jabs at my golf thread because they would rather do that than simply ignore something that doesn't affect them...it's all fine with me because all of the members I share that info. with and hopefully help others form their own leagues like ours, all these guys are to us, are CARTOONS! - Humorous figures that, in the end, offerings from that don't matter because they don't speak for the greater masses, thankfully!

Proof: Anyone can identify these guys after reading no more than (5) of their comments! In returning to this forum after a 2-year plus absence, I recognized these guys immediately because they still spew the same crap they did back then!...oh well,...I can be tolerant even if they can't!

I like cartoons...
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Old 10-04-2006, 10:45 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoFa
I'm beginning to wonder if they are not jealouse of us having guns, since they can't any more. After all, even if they say, saw those London bombers before they blew up, what would they do? Nothing I guess, where here since "pretty much according to Rich/Col" every man, woman and child is armed, we could blow them away before they had a chance to explode them.
Yep, green with envy I am begining to think.
Right on the mark!!!

...like I posted before, these guys should write their own history book, naturally called, "HISTORY FOR DUMMIES!"
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Old 10-04-2006, 11:06 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by FoFa
I'm beginning to wonder if they are not jealouse of us having guns, since they can't any more. After all, even if they say, saw those London bombers before they blew up, what would they do? Nothing I guess, where here since "pretty much according to Rich/Col" every man, woman and child is armed, we could blow them away before they had a chance to explode them.
Yep, green with envy I am begining to think.
Oh yeah, here we go armed vigilantes on the streets, no wonder so many get shot to death every day in America

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