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Old 05-02-2018, 06:48 PM   #16
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

While I often have been known to down-play government pronouncements, every time I have looked into OIG statements, they have had considerable substance to them. Rx_, your last sentence tells a sad but probably true tale. That 97% consensus was actually "97% of consultant companies desperately want government money and don't care what they have to do to get it." Which says that maybe 3% of those companies actually have some level of ethical behavior other than zero.

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Old 05-04-2018, 09:20 AM   #17
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As I understand it, sea ice is increasing in the antarctic because increased global temperatures are causing higher volumes of fresh-water run-off, which reduces the salinity of the water, and raises its freezing point. This fresh-water melt is lightly less dense than the higher salinity sea-water, and so it 'floats,' freezes more readily, and makes it appear the ice-pack volume is increasing. The cause of this effect, however, is higher global temperature, leading to ice loss on the continent, and an increase in sea-ice.
I have been to Antarctica. This is how the experts on that trip explained the increase in sea-ice.
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Old 05-04-2018, 09:57 AM   #18
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

MarkK,
Just to make sure, your talking Antarctica, i.e. SOUTH POLE. An area surrounded by large oceans with little natural run off of its own?

The "Floats" theory sounds very counter to my chem classes and how salt likes to migrate rather quickly in water. If this was the arctic where there is less access to other bodies of water I'd be less skeptical. The arctic does have major sources of fresh water that would be affected by changes in weather in North America (greater rain in northern Canada would lead to more fresh water discharged into the Arctic ocean) but Antarctica lacks flowing rivers to drive this kind of behavior and lacks a physical barrier between its surrounding water and both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

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Old 05-06-2018, 05:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_ View Post
MarkK,
Just to make sure, your talking Antarctica, i.e. SOUTH POLE. An area surrounded by large oceans with little natural run off of its own?
Ahh, no, I am talking about Antarctica, i.e. SOUTH POLE, a continent larger than Australia with the single largest supply of fresh-water on earth, which melts in Summer (our Winter). That melt, and yes, the run-off that results from that melt, is so great is changes the salinity of the surrounding sea, increasing the volume of sea ice by changing--raising--the temperature at which that water freezes.
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:23 AM   #20
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

https://wattsupwiththat.com/referenc.../sea-ice-page/
This covers both Poles sea-ice
It is "complicated" as one might expect.
The Russian studies related to Maritime Traffic have typically been better indicators of good research. They are graded on trade and military reality. The influence of our Sun as a Variable Star (more stable than most stars) is very interesting.
Al Gore predicted the polar caps would be melted in 5 years back in 2009.
Last April - a discussion of the South Pole ice was posted.
It is a presentation that might be worth reviewing.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/04/...arctic-icecap/
Over the years, it has around 350 Million views.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:36 AM   #21
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

Rx_,

The link "https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/04/16/can-humans-melt-the-antarctic-icecap/" points to an article that addresses "Could HUMANS melt the ice", not "Could HUMAN activity increase solar absorption world wide". Difference between you using a pedal powered generator to make electricity to power a heating element to melt a piece of ice and you putting black paint on your roof to run water over (on a sunny day) to use the water to melt the ice.

Very good read and, more importantly, expresses just how massive the amount of energy we are talking about. It also explains why so many people grab onto sound bytes as the math itself can be outside of normal understanding.
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Old 06-12-2018, 08:00 AM   #22
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

I hope the Al Gores of this world are wrong. But I think we can all agree we would all like less pollution. Air pollution kills around 9,000 people a year in London alone. It seems like a good idea to look hard for cleaner energy sources. Since research is expensive, it won't get done unless people think it is sufficiently urgent to do it, so perhaps the Al Gores have their uses, even if wrong. I am not decided either way, although I usually find myself more often in agreement with those who say we must reduce man's carbon footprint than the other way. No-one can pretend they "know". The trouble is, we may only find out when it's too late to do anything about it.

It's interesting these new billionaires like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk are coming up with ideas nobody has considered - such as moving heavy industry to another planet. Sounds crazy pie-in-the-sky, but so did going to the moon once. They have the money to do it. Yes they are businessmen, perhaps with their eye on the money they can make, but if they can clean up our planet, why not?

The old problem, as with any debate, is "who do you believe"? Nearly all the people arguing for one side of the other have some vested interest, so the argument is skewed from the start. Science is supposed to be free of bias and purely evidence-based. But unfortunately because human beings are involved, there becomes a "scientific orthodoxy", especially when vested interests are financing research to come up with results that vindicate their position. The debate is not over, but if the Al Gores are right, we can't afford to delay things!

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Old 06-21-2018, 04:18 AM   #23
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

Quote:
The Antarctic Ice Sheet is an important indicator of climate change and driver of sea-level rise.

Here we combine satellite observations of its changing volume, flow and gravitational attraction with modelling of its surface mass balance to show that it lost 2,720  1,390 billion tonnes of ice between 1992 and 2017, which corresponds to an increase in mean sea level of 7.6  3.9 millimetres (errors are one standard deviation). Over this period, ocean-driven melting has caused rates of ice loss from West Antarctica to increase from 53  29 billion to 159  26 billion tonnes per year; ice-shelf collapse has increased the rate of ice loss from the Antarctic Peninsula from 7  13 billion to 33  16 billion tonnes per year.

We find large variations in and among model estimates of surface mass balance and glacial isostatic adjustment for East Antarctica, with its average rate of mass gain over the period 1992–2017 (5 46 billion tonnes per year) being the least certain.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0179-y
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:14 AM   #24
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

I hadn't realized there was that little change in mean sea level. Over 25 years the change attributed is between 3.7mm to 11.5mm. From what is shown in the news I'd have expected an order of magnitude greater change at least.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:01 PM   #25
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Re: NASA Study Indicates Antarctica is Gaining More Ice Than It's Losing -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_ View Post
I hadn't realized there was that little change in mean sea level. Over 25 years the change attributed is between 3.7mm to 11.5mm. From what is shown in the news I'd have expected an order of magnitude greater change at least.
That is the change calculated just due to melting of the Antarctic ice cap. The big rise is due to thermal expansion of the water which is why the rise in some tropical areas is so large.

It also takes many years for water from melting ice caps to distribute across all oceans. Water flows quite slowly with a few millimetres of fall across thousands of kilometres of distance.

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