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Old 11-16-2016, 10:47 AM   #46
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Re: So.....that happened

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No political system that overrides the express will of the people in a free election can call itself democratic.
Hypothetical case, but relevant to the comment: So... if tomorrow, the USA votes to reestablish slavery in a free election and the popular vote says to do it, but the courts say "NO" and prevent implementation of the results of that vote - are we still a democracy?

Frothingslosh, I absolutely agree that the electoral college is flawed - but tossing the baby out with the bathwater seems wrong, too. The popular vote seems to be the wrong answer if, as you say, we lack an educated populace. Perhaps revoking the state mandates for the "winner take all" states so that they can have a split electoral vote might improve matters?

I don't think that the intent of the founders must be cast in stone any more than you or I believe that a 2000-year-old-book should absolutely govern modern morality. (That is, of course, another thread.) I am resistant to change for the sake of change, but not when I come to the conclusion that change is necessary.

My expression of that perceived need for change was to vote against HRC by selecting the only other candidate who had half-a-chance to win. Yes, it left a bad taste in my mouth. But it was definitely a case of the lesser of two evils. That is how badly I thought of HRC. I deeply regret that you can't see that I acted in what seemed to me to be a reasoned manner based on a badly conflicted conscience.

Only time will tell whether DJT will be our worst-ever president, but I know deep down in my heart that HRC would DEFINITELY have qualified for that title had she won. As stated before, I am not anti-black and not anti-woman. I could have accepted Carly Fiorina - but would not have voted for Sarah Palin. I worked for black employers for over 20 of my 28 years as a Dept. of Defense contractor and had NO PROBLEM with that. It was and is all about the individual candidates, and I was revulsed by HRC.

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Old 11-17-2016, 06:21 AM   #47
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Re: So.....that happened

I read an interesting analysis article by Matt Bai regarding what happened in the election. Something he said seemed relevant. I'll paraphrase just to keep it simple.

We don't live in ancient Athens. Why would we think that a pure democracy prevailed here? And what happened to ancient Greece, anyway? (Last question is mine and is rhetorical.)

I'll further add that in MODERN Athens, things ain't so great either, because the excessive liberal handouts for pensions and such almost destroyed Greece.

Follow-up and companion question to a previous one:

Hypothetical case, but relevant to the comment: So... if tomorrow, the USA votes to reestablish slavery in a free election and the popular vote says to do it, but the courts say "NO" and prevent implementation of the results of that vote - are we still a democracy?

And if we held that election and the majority vote said to reestablish slavery and the courts DID NOT step in to say "NO" so that slavery would be established, I think that would be democracy by Frothy's definition - but would anyone want to live in such a place? The electoral college, with its awkward division of votes; and the bicameral legislature split by popular criteria in one side and regional / geographic criteria on the other side are the attempt by the Founding Fathers to NOT be ancient Greece. Works for me.
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Old 11-17-2016, 08:50 AM   #48
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Re: So.....that happened

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Originally Posted by The_Doc_Man View Post
Hypothetical case, but relevant to the comment: So... if tomorrow, the USA votes to reestablish slavery in a free election and the popular vote says to do it, but the courts say "NO" and prevent implementation of the results of that vote - are we still a democracy?

And if we held that election and the majority vote said to reestablish slavery and the courts DID NOT step in to say "NO" so that slavery would be established, I think that would be democracy by Frothy's definition - but would anyone want to live in such a place? The electoral college, with its awkward division of votes; and the bicameral legislature split by popular criteria in one side and regional / geographic criteria on the other side are the attempt by the Founding Fathers to NOT be ancient Greece. Works for me.
I think the difference there is between electing a leader and establishing a specific law/rule.

If you vote to elect a leader, the expectation is that he or she has either the knowledge or a team of advisors to permit him or her to make the best decisions on behalf of the people who voted for them. As the Brexit vote proved, people on both sides were woefully ignorant of many of the issues and it was a little ridiculous to use their uneducated opinions as the basis for which to make a national policy decision on something so important.

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Old 11-17-2016, 09:17 AM   #49
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Re: So.....that happened

Name calling other members of the forum won't be tolerated. If you are incapable of refraining from this practice, I suggest stepping away from the thread.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:27 AM   #50
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Re: So.....that happened

You mean like I did?

I see you deleted the post where I stated I was doing precisely that.
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Old 11-17-2016, 09:47 AM   #51
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Re: So.....that happened

What constitutes the "will-of-people" and the effect on the political leadership is somewhat subjective. For example, in the just completed Presidential election Clinton received 47.9% of the popular vote and Trump received 47.2% of the popular vote. Given that close of a result neither party can truly assert that they have received a "mandate" from the people.

Additionally, many consider the Electoral College as being obsolete since a candidate can win an election through the Electoral College even-though they would have otherwise "won" based on the receiving a greater popular vote.

And along those lines, electing a President for a fixed term of four years could also be considered obsolete now. The will-of-the-people can change over time. As a consequence the President's agenda may no longer be in conformance with the will-of-the-people. Given that, why should the President remain in office?

In the US there is no method to rectify this since the US does not have a Parliament and there is no procedure for a "vote of no confidence" that would allow the government to be reorganized. As an example, when BREXIT passed David Cameron (UK Prime Minister) resigned since he recognized that the will-of-the-people had changed. He graciously resigned to allow a "new" government to be formed to take over the process of leaving the European Union as the public desired. (Note: that Cameron was not subject to a "vote of no confidence. The last successful vote of no confidence occurred in 1979.) My conclusionary summation, for those who are strong advocates for unfettered democracy is that the political leadership should be subject to dismal when they no longer represent the will-of-the-people.
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Old 11-17-2016, 08:54 PM   #52
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Re: So.....that happened

Thanks, Steve, for chiming in. Yes, that 0.7% difference is hard to describe using the word "mandate" - and that is where the problem lies. The HRC supports realize that they were so close to winning, and would have won if the votes had been distributed differently. Which is playing the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" game. So close yet so far.

Alc, your point is also well taken. Many of the analyses I have read after-the-fact make it clear that they Democrats and HRC essentially saw what they wanted to see, but what they DID see wasn't the reality of the disaffected voters.

Quote:
I think the difference there is between electing a leader and establishing a specific law/rule.
You are correct that there is a difference between election to office and referendums on laws, but if we recall the Al Gore and Florida "hanging chads" fiasco, that mess ended up with having to get the Supremes adding their 2 cents' worth, so specific laws/rules were potentially a bit fluid at that time. I am reminded of the "Treasure of Sierra Madre" - "Badge? We don't need no steenking badge." Well, here it was "Election laws? We don't need no steenking election laws."

Vassago, I understand that Frothy is upset with me and I regret that he has taken my attitude as somehow insulting. However, I worked as a musician on Bourbon Street for many years while going through college. I've been called things I had to ask my friends about because I had never heard those words in those combinations before. I know it's not a good precedent, and please do what you think is right, but I can live with having been called a rude name or two. I'm bigger than that.

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Old 05-04-2017, 05:48 AM   #53
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Re: So.....that happened

The news analysts, obviously having little else to do, have delved deeper and deeper into the Trump/Clinton election. For our foreign friends who still wonder what happened and WHY it happened, I offer this view from a writer from the New York Post.

http://nypost.com/2017/05/03/no-hill...u-lost-is-you/

With the benefit of hindsight and collated after-the-election polling (not limited to exit polling), Mr. Olsen offers at least a few insights.

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