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Old 10-19-2018, 07:47 AM   #16
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Hi Dave

Of course you are correct that each of these values can be obtained from MS Dev Center (and much more besides) but that isn't quite the point here.

You can use each of the type & flags values in MSysObjects to do many things, not least get a list of all database objects and what each object actually is.

Knowing something is an action query isn't as useful as knowing what type of action query it is.

As for 'deep hidden' tables (my name for them), these are not the same as 'standard' hidden objects (Flags=8) in that it is impossible to view them in the navigation pane.

Thanks BUT I already know how several ways of getting a list of these deep hidden tables. I was deliberately not explaining how its done.
In fact I manipulated their properties in my security challenges in the example databases area.

In some cases, they can be viewed using a query and made into standard visible tables
However others cannot be viewed at all - - very deep hidden you could say!
e.g. the f_......(long string here) ...._Data table

Your list of attributes is on the right lines though there are other such attributes as well.

Attached is a fairly simple example ACCDE file I uploaded a couple of months ago.
It has a form & 2 deep hidden tables one of which can be made visible using the form. Its not difficult to find out what the other is called - more importantly can you read its contents?

And if you find that easy, please do try my 3 security challenges.
I'll follow up by PM or email in the next day or so
Attached Files
File Type: zip DeepHideTablesExample.zip (28.5 KB, 3 views)

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Last edited by isladogs; 10-20-2018 at 01:12 AM. Reason: clarification (well partly anyway)
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:16 AM   #17
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

At the risk of sounding like a total idiot, it is posts like this one that has prompted me to dub Colin/Ridders/isladogs the Tom Riddle of AWF.

Don’t judge me too harshly, it is Friday and I am celebrating the wife’s promotion with copious amounts of the local wine.

Now, back to our regularary scheduled program...
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:26 AM   #18
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Ah but Access is all just black magic.

I believe he was a nice magician when he was still called Tom Riddle.
But then he sold his soul to the devil and turned into Voldemort.
Or are my memories of Harry Potter getting muddled?

Ahhh my precious .... Oops sorry that's Gollum

Congrats to Melissa on her promotion

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Last edited by isladogs; 10-20-2018 at 07:10 AM. Reason: Grammar
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:29 AM   #19
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by isladogs View Post
Ah but Access is all just black magic.
I've referred to something happening in MS Access is being "magic" the other day but someone objected!



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Old 10-19-2018, 08:40 AM   #20
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Ok then.
Access is just an enigma wrapped up in a (tom) riddle


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Last edited by isladogs; 10-19-2018 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:04 AM   #21
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

@colin, in a moment of 'need to do something different' solved your riddle. found two records in the other table. It uses a similar principle I have applied to protecting db's from intrusion, so not too difficult!

@John - hope you and missy don't have a hangover! and congrats on the promotion
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:21 AM   #22
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

I still think of some things that happen behind the scenes in Office as the very blackest of black magic, though I don't recall the use of "black magic" in the Harry Potter books. They DID talk about the "unspeakable curses" and such, but magic was just... magic.

And I very frequently will describe some Access-based process that includes the phrase, "when you do this, Access automagically does that ..." - but nobody has ever called me down. It isn't a typo when I use that. Given the disdainful attitude that so many folks have about Microsoft software reliability, there is more than just a Freudian slip in those comments. Perhaps a mixture of irony and sarcasm?

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Old 10-20-2018, 06:28 AM   #23
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_London View Post
@colin, in a moment of 'need to do something different' solved your riddle. found two records in the other table. It uses a similar principle I have applied to protecting db's from intrusion, so not too difficult!
Hi CJ
Thanks for not giving away the solution
You are of course correct & I'm sure you know the table name & contents.
It was intended as your 'starter for ten' (members outside the UK MAY not know that phrase)

Next, you should try the various Security Challenges - the first is also quite easy.
Your solution will certainly solve the first challenge.

The second is more tricky and includes additional steps ...and the third harder still.
BUT I'm extremely confident in your ability to complete all of them if you give them a try
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Old 10-20-2018, 06:47 AM   #24
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Thanks CJ! Unfortunately it involves her going back to Virginia while I stay behind and get things sorted here. Needless to say my European dream is about to become an American Nightmare...
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:09 AM   #25
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

@John - So you are heading back as well? We were talking about where could we go for a winter weekend break only the other day - and thought of you guys. Haven't got around to doing anything about it yet....

@colin - work pressure is down a notch at the moment, so I'll give it a go
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:42 AM   #26
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

CJ,

The plan is for me to start looking and go back once I find another job. My tenure here in Italy doesn’t expire until 2021, but once Missy landed a job in the chosen field she didn’t want to let the opportunity slip by. Couple that with newest addition to our family (Chloe) and the writing was in the wall.
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:31 PM   #27
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Good luck with that NG

Now ... getting back to the topic again ....I've finally managed to view all the very deep hidden system tables that I've mentioned several times in this thread.

I had a breakthrough due to a passing comment in an email from CJ_London with his solution for Security Challenge #1.

I've updated my website with more details of what these contain.
For anyone who cares, see http://www.mendipdatasystems.co.uk/p...les/4594446646

TBH the outcome was all a bit of a letdown in the end as they do not seem to contain anything particularly crucial to ensuring an ACCDB file runs properly
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Old 10-21-2018, 09:45 AM   #28
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Quote:
One item I noticed you missed - data definition query with flags=96
I have them as 144. I'll see if I can figure out if there are two different types. I also discovered something I never knew when I went looking for an explanation of 96 vs 144. If you use abomination data types, the query type changes.

262147 rather than 3 for Hidden selects
and
262144 rather than 0 for select querydefs
Others may change also but this is all I tested.

Quote:
For info, hidden objects add 8 to the Flags value
What does 8 mean?
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:08 AM   #29
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Re: Purpose of System Tables

Pat
As you already know there are gaps of 16 between all the flags values in the list
Hiding any object fills the 'gap' by adding 8 to the 'default' MSysObjects flags value for that object.
So a hidden local table has flags 0+8=8 as does a hidden select query.
Hidden crosstab 16+8=24 etc

EDIT
Forgot to say that I made a create table data definition query to recheck the flags value. Definitely 96 or 104 if hidden.

Also I've no idea where those numbers come from in the latter part of your last post e.g. "3 for hidden selects"

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Last edited by isladogs; 10-21-2018 at 01:55 PM.
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