Shootings in US schools (2 Viewers)

ShaneMan

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Rich said:
Mmmm, then you ask them like I have umpteen times, why does their constitution not protect the civil liberties of their children. It's obvious to most that in America they're not entitled to any:rolleyes:
Oh and Jenny can't help herself, she's American too

I agree, in part, with your statement here, Rich. Since Roe vs Wade we have killed over 47 million of our children.
 

jsanders

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ShaneMan said:
I agree, in part, with your statement here, Rich. Since Roe vs Wade we have killed over 47 million of our children.


It’s a sad testimony on so many levels. Not the least of which we have so divided the country that we have elected such unbelievable criminals to office.

We now face a situation where the American people are being duped by politicians with so called high moral values. When out of the left side of their mouths they’re creating a middle classless society.

But this is a subject or another time.
 
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Rich

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ShaneMan said:
I agree, in part, with your statement here, Rich. Since Roe vs Wade we have killed over 47 million of our children.
Good, 'cause this overpopulated planet already has enough unwanted neglected kids
 

jsanders

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Rich said:
Good, 'cause this overpopulated planet already has enough unwanted neglected kids


Don't worry Rich, the plagues are coming.

Gaia is not going to stand by and let herself die from all this human infestation.

About 1945 or so when the human race reached 2 billions the world was in a state of equilibrium. Since then we have been running the battery down. Soon we will see the results of all of our stupidity.
 

ShaneMan

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Rich said:
Good, 'cause this overpopulated planet already has enough unwanted neglected kids

You talk out of both sides of your mouth.
 
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Rich

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jsanders said:
Don't worry Rich, the plagues are coming.

Gaia is not going to stand by and let herself die from all this human infestation.

About 1945 or so when the human race reached 2 billions the world was in a state of equilibrium. Since then we have been running the battery down. Soon we will see the results of all of our stupidity.
Christ, for once Jen, you're not far off the mark:eek:
 

ColinEssex

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I think it may be my fault the maths went a bit askew :eek:

Easy mistake:cool: :rolleyes:

Col
 

FoFa

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nikkypickles said:
Without turning it back into a slanging match, can someone point me in the direction of the non-hunting, non-crime related list of valid reasons for needing a gun?
Lets take a Motorcycle or bicycle, there are those that just ride them for fun, not as a means of transportation, it is called recreational. Same with guns, we have recreational shooting. And before you start Rich, more people are killed riding bucycles than in recreational shooting (no I do not concider crimes recreational).
As with sports, say Football, Basketball, or whatever you may concider, there are also sporting matches for guns. From cowboy action shooting to 1000 yard target shooting.
 
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Rich

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FoFa said:
And before you start Rich, more people are killed riding bucycles than in recreational shooting
That's because your government won't introduce the compulsory wearing of helmets and in any event motorcylists don't aim their bikes at people as a weapon
 

jsanders

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Rich said:
That's because your government won't introduce the compulsory wearing of helmets and in any event motorcylists don't aim their bikes at people as a weapon

I don't think recreational shooter do either.

Beside when’s the last time anyone used motorcycle to thwart a would-be burglar?
 
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Rich

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jsanders said:
Beside when’s the last time anyone used motorcycle to thwart a would-be burglar?
Or rob a liquor store, or mug somebody, or.................
 

Mile-O

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I see from the news today that another possible school massacre was thwarted in Missouri, this time when a thirteen year old dressed in a trenchcoat and mask took a rifle to school, pointed it at students, and fired a shot into the ceiling before the weapon jammed.
 

nikkypickles

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FoFa said:
Lets take a Motorcycle or bicycle, there are those that just ride them for fun, not as a means of transportation, it is called recreational. Same with guns, we have recreational shooting. And before you start Rich, more people are killed riding bucycles than in recreational shooting (no I do not concider crimes recreational).
As with sports, say Football, Basketball, or whatever you may concider, there are also sporting matches for guns. From cowboy action shooting to 1000 yard target shooting.


I can still see the tiny flaw in the logic though - in that a motorcycle, a football (either the round 'soccer' ball, or the rugby shaped one), nor a basketball can be deliberately used as a serial killing weapon should a p***ed off teenager get hold of them. (OK, I concede, the motorbike maybe - but then the death count might go as high as two - and it would require more luck than judgement) The only other comparison which might hold true is a baseball bat.

While I can see the point behind recreational shooting, wouldn't it make more sense to have 'safer' bullets? The dummy rounds that sometimes get referred to in SFX documentaries and the like? They may still result in deaths, but it would reduce the risk down to just above the risk inherent in any sport. :confused:
 

FoFa

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nikkypickles said:
I can still see the tiny flaw in the logic though
See the problem here is, you took an answer to one question, changed it around to mean something different.
 

The_Doc_Man

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it's the plethora of weapons there that are causing the genocide in the first place?

The above was a comment in regard to the Darfur region. However, the genocide is occurring because the plethora so described is nonetheless mostly or completely one-sided. If the victims of the genocide could reliably shoot back at the ones performing the genocide, there would suddenly be a lot less genocide going on. It would be an outright shooting war, but at least there would be some deterrence to be had. And if enough of the genocidal idiots die, the survivors might decide it would be cheaper to have peace.

As to "non-crime, non-hunting" uses for guns: Recreation with real bullets or with paint-balls. Hell, the biathlon is skiing and target shooting. That's been around for a long time as an Olympic sport and the Olympics are about as multi-national as you can get. So recreational shooting isn't limited to the USA by any means.

As to shooting varmints, I would respectfully suggest adding the nutria to the list of varmints that are eminently shootable. In other countries this creature might be called the coypu. It is a giant rat-beaver with a round (not flat) hairless tail, big yellow teeth, and a body profile vaguely like a capybara. It is a walking digestive tract for vegetation. Our university biology lab had a few. They would let the little buggers out in the enclosed courtyards. The nutria take a step and eat grass, take another step and poop, take a step and nibble grass, take a step and poop, .... you get the idea. A veritable poop assembly line.

Now, the issue of "why carry a gun" is answered by refusing to accept the limitations of "non-crime, non-hunting" reasons.

First, hunting is valuable as a means of animal population control. Most good hunters learn to accept the hunting license limitations, which are set based on actuarial tables of how many animals should be killed in a year to keep the population of that given animal under control. No, I'm not kidding - animal actuaries! Also taking into account that not every hunter brings back a particular animal each time s/he goes hunting.

Second, last night in N'Awlins, we had a case of a man who was walking with his girlfriend when they were accosted by a robber waving a gun. The robber turned his attention to the woman, who had reacted by screaming in panic. When his attention was distracted, the boyfriend drew his own handgun and ended the robber's threat. (Also ended the robber's life.) The boyfriend had a state "concealed carry" permit, which meant he had gone to a handgun safety class and had passed a written test on gun usage. Witnesses made it clear that the would-be robber approached with gun already drawn, so there was no question that the shooting was justified and self-defense.

So by allowing hunters to have guns, we perform controlled acts of animal population control. By allowing law-abiding citizens to carry guns, we perform acts of human animal population control. And also make the bad guys think twice about robbing people in certain neighborhoods. The latter is called "deterrence" and it actually works well. Of course, for those too stupid to be deterred, "survival of the smartest" also works to control crime.
 
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Rich

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Doc said:
Second, last night in N'Awlins, we had a case of a man who was walking with his girlfriend when they were accosted by a robber waving a gun. The robber turned his attention to the woman, who had reacted by screaming in panic. When his attention was distracted, the boyfriend drew his own handgun and ended the robber's threat. (Also ended the robber's life.) The boyfriend had a state "concealed carry" permit, which meant he had gone to a handgun safety class and had passed a written test on gun usage. Witnesses made it clear that the would-be robber approached with gun already drawn, so there was no question that the shooting was justified and self-defense.
So armed vigillantes set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner, that's what you call a civillised society?
Was it worth taking a life for a few dollars, is that really how cheap life is in America?
 

msp

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The_Doc_Man said:
Second, last night in N'Awlins, we had a case of a man who was walking with his girlfriend when they were accosted by a robber waving a gun. The robber turned his attention to the woman, who had reacted by screaming in panic. When his attention was distracted, the boyfriend drew his own handgun and ended the robber's threat. (Also ended the robber's life.) The boyfriend had a state "concealed carry" permit, which meant he had gone to a handgun safety class and had passed a written test on gun usage. Witnesses made it clear that the would-be robber approached with gun already drawn, so there was no question that the shooting was justified and self-defense.

So by allowing hunters to have guns, we perform controlled acts of animal population control. By allowing law-abiding citizens to carry guns, we perform acts of human animal population control. And also make the bad guys think twice about robbing people in certain neighborhoods. The latter is called "deterrence" and it actually works well. Of course, for those too stupid to be deterred, "survival of the smartest" also works to control crime.


I do understand this argument. However the ease of availability of weapons will increase the likelihood they the perpetrator will have a gun, no matter what the papers say gun crime in the UK is quite rare. If you are mugged in the UK it is very unlikely that the perpetrator will have a gun. There is a deterrent if the mugger is caught if a mugger uses a gun he will have a 10 year sentence, (5 fixed years just for possession).

I do not prescribe to the theory that if everyone has a gun that everyone if safer than if no-one had a gun, and believe that there is a fundermental flaw in that some individuals will justify the use of weapons very quickley, even when the situation did not require it.
 

nikkypickles

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msp said:
I do understand this argument. However the ease of availability of weapons will increase the likelihood that the perpetrator will have a gun, no matter what the papers say gun crime in the UK is quite rare. If you are mugged in the UK it is very unlikely that the perpetrator will have a gun. There is a deterrent if the mugger is caught if a mugger uses a gun he will have a 10 year sentence, (5 fixed years just for possession).

I do not prescribe to the theory that if everyone has a gun that everyone if safer than if no-one had a gun, and believe that there is a fundamental flaw in that some individuals will justify the use of weapons very quickly, even when the situation did not require it.


That's worded far better than I could do.

Add to that people defending their homes - take the image of the husband going downstairs wielding a golf club, ready to defend his family, only to be confronted by a burglar with a knife. Husband buys a pistol, burglar gets an AK-47! (obvious exaggeration; I don't know anything about the different calibers of guns). The burglar will always do what they need to be able to do their "job". If they feel threatened, they will tip the balance in their favour.

Maybe, in defending our homes we exercise the pest control of removing burglars - but what about those burglars who are quicker on the draw? Our prisons are already overcrowded enough without adding the number of scumbags who kill families for the sake of a TV.
 

Bodisathva

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nikkypickles said:
Add to that people defending their homes - take the image of the husband going downstairs wielding a golf club, ready to defend his family, only to be confronted by a burglar with a knife. Husband buys a pistol, burglar gets an AK-47! (obvious exaggeration; I don't know anything about the different calibers of guns). The burglar will always do what they need to be able to do their "job". If they feel threatened, they will tip the balance in their favour.
The problem with that point of view is that I don't need to get an M-60 to overcome the burglar's AK-47...my .45 will do nicely for everything short of a shoulder fired rocket:eek: I am, of course, exaggerating, but the basic idea is that whether or not you can throw more lead, faster, farther, etc. is irrelevant...bullets kill in any calibur if weilded by the proper hands. The point is that the burglar/rapist/ne'er-do-well doesn't know which the average homeowner is, or whether or not such a deterant actually exists in the targeted domicile. It is the possibility that is the point. Given the fact that armed B&E's actually take place with this knowledge, what do you think would happen if they knew, for certain, they were in no danger?
 

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