American Banks and their part in my downfall (2 Viewers)

[Vassago]

YAY, another bash America thread! Because, you know, these threads will certainly fix the world's economy...

 

[speakers_86]

Easy credit is to blame. We should blame the government for allowing it, banks for offering it, and people for taking it. There is no one group not at fault in this.

Really I think bubble burst should be expected every few decades. We cant always see the weakness until its too late. Im sure something good will come out of this. The Great Depression lead to regulations of securities, and I am sure this current crisis will (or has) lead to some check on lenders.

 

[Rich]

YAY, another bash America thread! Because, you know, these threads will certainly fix the world's economy...

Well don't sit around feeling guilty for too long, get out and start spending money that you probably don't have anyway, you can borrow money cheaply at the minute though how you pay it back is something to worry abou tommorrow

 

[dan-cat]

Easy credit is to blame. We should blame the government for allowing it, banks for offering it, and people for taking it. There is no one group not at fault in this.

There is something to be said about the lemming factor. If everyone else is doing it then it must be ok, right?

Yes the banks should not offer irresponsible loans, they are supposed to be the experts and with that comes a degree of responsibility. However it is still up to the individual to look after their own backs. A loan, after all, is a consentual agreement between two parties.

 

[Pauldohert]

Whilst a few individuals are responsible for their own downfall in being repossessed (not all with a huge drop in equity in homes and redundancy etc), I cannot see that they are to blame for a world economic meltdown.

That blame lies firmly with the financial institutions and then the governments who let them do it.

Its the yankee market that started the problem (compounded by plenty of others). But the yankee idea that too much government was to blame only increases the worlds necessity for a new world leader. Its a shame the dominance of Asia has been delayed somewhat by this unfortunate affair.

 

[David Eagar]

Whilst a few individuals are responsible for their own downfall in being repossessed (not all with a huge drop in equity in homes and redundancy etc), I cannot see that they are to blame for a world economic meltdown.

That blame lies firmly with the financial institutions and then the governments who let them do it.

Its the yankee market that started the problem (compounded by plenty of others). But the yankee idea that too much government was to blame only increases the worlds necessity for a new world leader. Its a shame the dominance of Asia has been delayed somewhat by this unfortunate affair.

Now there is an interesting slant on things: Mind you, if you think the American financial 'experts' are crooks, wait till those crafty Chinese and Indians get you in their clutches!

sadly, I trust them even less

 

[Thales750]

Whilst a few individuals are responsible for their own downfall in being repossessed (not all with a huge drop in equity in homes and redundancy etc), I cannot see that they are to blame for a world economic meltdown.

That blame lies firmly with the financial institutions and then the governments who let them do it.

Its the yankee market that started the problem (compounded by plenty of others). But the yankee idea that too much government was to blame only increases the worlds necessity for a new world leader. Its a shame the dominance of Asia has been delayed somewhat by this unfortunate affair.

What an interesting line of horse shit.

You must have been missing the news for the last 50 years or so.

After the Chinese march a 100 million solders into the Middle East, kill all the men, abduct all of the woman, and make the oil their own. You’ll be wishing for a global English speaking coalition. You’ll even break standard British racist codes and include the Indians.

Hah! Welcoming a Chinese Hegemony indeed.

 

[David Eagar]

What an interesting line of horse shit.

You must have been missing the news for the last 50 years or so.

After the Chinese march a 100 million solders into the Middle East, kill all the men, abduct all of the woman, and make the oil their own. You’ll be wishing for a global English speaking coalition. You’ll even break standard British racist codes and include the Indians.

Hah! Welcoming a Chinese Hegemony indeed.

As opposed to the Yanks, that illegally invades countries, without UN approval, kidnaps citizens because someone in the Whitehouse decides they are terrorists, holds them in custody without trial and tortures them to boot! All in the name of "upholding democracy" Now THERE is an interesting line of horseshit

That's the world I want to see - NOT

 

[GaryPanic]

the housing breakdown is prinicplly (?) a US one -
owning to a couple of factors the first being the actual size of the US market- (which is pretty big)
then you have a lack of regulation in lending critia (golden rules 2.5 joint salary - 3 times single salary or there abouts)
then you have the debts being sold off - so morgage brokers write the business sell the debt off but keep the commission- - this makes it in there interest to sell high morgages - the quick buck...

then to compound this - Banks (Bankers) lost sight of the ball - and just saw figures going up - but not the exposure

Banks in Europe were buying toxic bonds from te US (and visa-versa)

some of the problem then stems from whom owes what moneys on what bonds the debts have been sold 5-6 times backwards and forwards ..

now you have near zero interest rate - which might suit some markets - but not others the markets need to find there balance again (and quickly)

This is not a bash at the Yanks - but the majority of the problem stems from the US (obersation ??typo- )

As has been mentioned in various post - the individual needs to be more liabile -
if your offerd a morgage that you cannot service - then don't go for it -
if its your dream that your chasing - make sure it doesn't turn into your nightmare - because of debt
gary

 

[Mike375]

Its a shame the dominance of Asia has been delayed somewhat by this unfortunate affair.

Unbelievable

 

[Vassago]

The recent event of US banks paying themselves enormous bonuses while recieving government handouts to stay in business, using the pretext of "we must top salaries to attract the best talent".

This 'so called' best talent is what got you into the enormous debt you are in: Why the hell would you want to keep them???

The fact that the rest of the world now suffers from your mistakes inevitably leads to the demise of the US empire.

And like all empires that have fellen before you, your demise will be gladly recieved.

Obama seems to be one the most able statesman on the world stage, although has not had time to proove his mettle - I hope he is up to the task and not just another politician promising us the world and delivering nothing.

Americans, no matter how big your flag, how loudly you proclaim you believe in God:

This time, you have to admit WE WERE WRONG!

Maybe I should answer with the same smug comments you give...

Ah yes, the typical non-American response, "It's all America's fault"

If you truly have financial difficulties, how about you take some of your own advice you so freely and unapologetically give and fess up to your own mistakes that put you in that bind. Neither any single American nor anyone else forced you to sign for any credit you may have taken. If you made poor financial decisions, the blame is on you. Even if you argue that banks and financial institutions were partly to blame with their free-for-all lending practices, how many American financial institutions did you do business with? If you did, the key word there is YOU did business with them.

Take some personal responsibility for your situation, then get out there and fix it, stop blaming others for your poor choices.

 

[statsman]

The problem was not strictly American made.

Central banks around the world dropped their prime rates to the lowest points in 100 years in the hopes of keeping the economic boom going. This was a political decision not an economic one.

The economic bust came anyway. Now some prime rates are already below 3%. How can you drop them any more without actually giving money away. We are already seeing that the banks in countries where the banking laws and oversights are minimal (like the US) are just not lending any money at all. It's the recoil reaction to the boom. Previously they were too liberal with loans, now they've gone too far the other way.

The US is caught in a corner so they are in fact giving money away. Most of the other world governments will wind up doing the same to avoid a complete economic collapse.

 

[David Eagar]

Maybe I should answer with the same smug comments you give...

Ah yes, the typical non-American response, "It's all America's fault"

If you truly have financial difficulties, how about you take some of your own advice you so freely and unapologetically give and fess up to your own mistakes that put you in that bind. Neither any single American nor anyone else forced you to sign for any credit you may have taken. If you made poor financial decisions, the blame is on you. Even if you argue that banks and financial institutions were partly to blame with their free-for-all lending practices, how many American financial institutions did you do business with? If you did, the key word there is YOU did business with them.

Take some personal responsibility for your situation, then get out there and fix it, stop blaming others for your poor choices.

Actually, I directly have no dealings with American banks. The bank I deal with however, probably does.

Most Australian banks appear to be coming out of this in pretty good shape - either by good management, good luck, or due to fact that they are making so much profit gouging us poor Australians, they don't need to be dealing too much with the rest of the world.

Maybe if America and Americans didn't continually sprout how they are 'the greatest country on the planet' they might get a bit more sympathy when they create almighty stuff ups like this

 

[Vassago]

Actually, I directly have no dealings with American banks. The bank I deal with however, probably does.

Most Australian banks appear to be coming out of this in pretty good shape - either by good management, good luck, or due to fact that they are making so much profit gouging us poor Australians, they don't need to be dealing too much with the rest of the world.

Maybe if America and Americans didn't continually sprout how they are 'the greatest country on the planet' they might get a bit more sympathy when they create almighty stuff ups like this

I've never heard anyone "sprout" that America is the greatest country on the planet, but even if some Americans have, how is it not okay to have patriotism in one's own country? I would imagine you wouldn't live in your country if you didn't think it was the greatest, why would you not move to the one you thought was? It just seems obvious to me.

If your Australian banks made poor choices with US Banks, then they are just as much to blame for creating this "almighty stuff up". You can't blame America alone.

 

[David Eagar]

I've never heard anyone "sprout" that America is the greatest country on the planet.

I take it then, you took no part whatsoever in your recent election process where for the last 2 years every candidate (viable or not) at least claimed once that America was the greatest country on earth.

Apparently, their patriotism is brought into question if they don't make this statement

 

[Rich]

Apparently, their patriotism is brought into question if they don't make this statement

Actually they're less likely to be elected if they don't lie and state that they believe in a god

 

[Thales750]

This is just the beginning of a very long and arduous path to a complete readjustment and probable collapse of the global economy.
Before this is over, blame will no longer be of any consequence…
Having your nation not starve will be.

I predicted this 5 years ago.
But my parents being smarter than me, built our family a farm.

I live in the Mid-Atlantic, which is the wealthiest part of the United States (Look it up, 5 or 6 of the highest income per capita counties in the USA are right here,) and connected directly to the federal government.
Many of my moron conservative buddies argued that it could never happen here. Well it did, home building in this area is down about 98% and houses in some areas have lost 60% of their (fake) value.
There is going to be another wave of foreclosures and it will be more devastating than the first. The first wave was mostly in lower income families for three reasons:

1. They’re generally more vulnerable
2. There was a social impetus to provide home ownership to these families.
3. The higher end markets were more saturated 85% ownership compared to 61% for lower end.

A large percentage of the move up houses, which were mathematically overpriced for their respective demographics by 60% or so, required people to buy them by utilizing arms and other mechanism to artificially make the payments temporarily lower than what was normal for a home of that price range.

This practice was idiotically based on real estate continuing to out pace inflation by 20% annually and the availability of qualified buyers in the future.
Obviously these assumptions proved to be grossly incorrect. I’m just a carpenter but had they listened; we wouldn’t be here now.
So the upper middle class foreclosures could potentially dwarf the first wave, and with all the layoffs coming, this is going to be a depression to rival the first global depression, of the 20th century.

If that weren’t enough, oh yes there’s more to come.

Commercial real-estate is going to go through a similar or worse downsizing.
But all this is just the tip of the iceberg, after all this shrinking has occurred, what we will be facing ,as a race; is mass starvation, either induces by the next global conflict or the natural progression of, for the first time in history, 80% of the world’s population living in cities and an average of 1500 miles from the food supply (1500 miles is USA figures, it’s actually worse for people depending on Australian and South American farms for their food)

Now as to the blame. It’s far to simplistic to blame either the financial institutes or the borrowers, hell no one even mentions how much the big builders were making on all those homes and how coincidentally the money flowed from the big, high profit, builders to the banking industry where we are now bailing them out.
Very interesting.

Let’s leave the builders, the banker, and the borrowers for a second.
The real cause of this global devastation might well be Armageddon, predicted by the bible, but we’ll leave that out as well.

Overcapacity
Simply stated overcapacity in the system has produced all of the current woes, and there is no end in sight. Isaac Asimov predicted this type of social problem in some of his books from the late 30s.
More Later.

Edited for clarification: I live in Northern Virgina, next to the District of Columbia.

 

[David Eagar]

Thales750

Formerly Jsanders


Clear, well thought out, illuminating, well presented and a unique perspective.

Moderators - This is clearly the sort of nonsense we need to keep out of this forum!

 

[Thales750]

I'll admit....
WE WERE WRONG

To ever let our government stick it's nose into the banking/mortgage business all those years ago.

WE WERE WRONG

To not hold Barney Frank and Chris Dodd accountable for not doing their job in admitting that Fannie and Freddie were horrible ideas and were in big trouble.

WE ARE NOW MAKING "THE MOST WRONG" MOVE YET

In nationalising our banking system. Name one thing (besides war) that government has ever managed successfully.

The fun has just started folks. We're going the wrong way. We need to be tar-and-feathering elected officials, not worshipping them.

That's very funny.

Road building
The CDC
OSHA
NASA
The US Coast Guard
FEMA (before Bush)
NOAA
EPA (Again before Bush)
FBI
IRS
And Actually before Bush banking regulators
Public Schools until families stopped disciplining their children and expected the schools to do it for them. America produced the best educated work force in the world in public schools.
Water and Sewer Treatment
Fire departments
Police Departments
Building Regulators
The Smithsonian
National Parks

The good thing about arguing with libertarians is that their Imams preach such a limited view, and say it in the same old tired words, you can spot them a mile away. That’s why they call them selves ditto heads.

Whenever people use words like "government run schools", and "liberals", to try to categorize a thinking process, you always wind up with cessation of original thought.

One last point, after decades of Americans enjoying the highest home ownership in the world, and that weighed against multi generational mortgages in Europe, all of a sudden the very mechanisms, that made it possible, have never worked.

Brainwashing is alive and well.

My writing may sound harsh and for that I do apologies, but I’m infuriated by this propensity of some Americans to believe that their personal interests are more important than the good of the country.

Rugged individualism is a major factor in the greatness of America, but so is civil duty, obeying law, and providing more to the community than simply jobs, and as long as major corporations continue to blatantly disregard responsibility in other areas besides profit, than it is the mandate of the government to protect the nation from them.

Gone are the days when we can blindly pay homage to the messages piped to us by the corporate pipers, and their minions like Rush Limbaugh.

 

[Thales750]

I'm back folks.

Stamping out flaming bullshit, whenever I see it.

It's a messy, funky job, but someone has to do it.