Solved LAN question

[Pat Hartman]

I have built a small database for a charity and of course their network is less than optimal. They are using a peer-to-peer network so there is no designated server and of course everyone is connecting using WiFi. There will be about a dozen users but only two that will have update permission. I asked them to see if they could get a donation from one of their larger clients of a desktop that might be nearing its replacement time so that I can install the BE on a computer that will not be used as a workstation. So far, no one has come through.

I'd like to go ahead and install the app because the data I converted is getting stale and I don't want to create any more of a reconciliation problem than I have to. I thought that I might buy an external HD and install the BE on that. It will still have to be attached to a workstation PC but I wonder if that will provide a little extra protection given the non-ideal network environment. Another option which is what the question is really about it how to the external HD's that connect to the router work? Would that be worth the extra money and will Access work with it @The_Doc_Man ?

Happy Thanksgiving. Over the river and through the woods to granddaughter's house we go

 

[Minty]

I stored a backend on a memory stick on a router as a temporary measure, and to my surprise it worked, but it was a pretty whizzy router.
I think it would depend on the routers configuration and what it supports.

I now use a NAS box on my network and it's simple to set up and use.

 

[Pat Hartman]

What is a NAS box? and how much do they cost? and why would it be better than an ordinary external drive?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I have built a small database for a charity and of course their network is less than optimal. They are using a peer-to-peer network so there is no designated server and of course everyone is connecting using WiFi. There will be about a dozen users but only two that will have update permission. I asked them to see if they could get a donation from one of their larger clients of a desktop that might be nearing its replacement time so that I can install the BE on a computer that will not be used as a workstation. So far, no one has come through.

I'd like to go ahead and install the app because the data I converted is getting stale and I don't want to create any more of a reconciliation problem than I have to. I thought that I might buy an external HD and install the BE on that. It will still have to be attached to a workstation PC but I wonder if that will provide a little extra protection given the non-ideal network environment. Another option which is what the question is really about it how to the external HD's that connect to the router work? Would that be worth the extra money and will Access work with it @The_Doc_Man ?

Happy Thanksgiving. Over the river and through the woods to granddaughter's house we go

FIRST and foremost, Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours as well.

Second, to my limited understanding, the network point-to-point layer being Wi-Fi won't change the application layer being SMB protocol for all file sharing. They are a couple of layers apart.

The question will be whether the external HD's controller supports SMB. (Most of them will; they typically operate at a lower-level device-primitive protocol, so again... a couple of layers apart.) If the external device can be mapped like a network drive can be mapped, the software will literally not know the difference. If you look at that drive's FSO drive type, it will simply show up as "network."

Your question: How do the external HDs work when connecting to the router? OK, pedantic answer on the horizon...

If this is a "true" networked device, it will probably have the ability to ask the router's DHCP facility to assign it a local IP address, probably in the 192.168.0.x range. However, you might have a disk that asks you to "lock down" an address in the non-managed range of the router. (ALL home/end-user routers other than the cheapest possible units will have such a range.)

Since home routers typically use the 192.168.x.x (class B network) standard for network address translation, you probably will have 192.168.0.x (x=1 to 253) as the managed range, plus .254 as the router itself; both .0 and .255 are reserved addresses for the sub-net control operations. That leaves 192.168.y.x as 254 OTHER subnets (based on "y") for the disk to find a home.

The instructions that come with the disk should specify which of the two cases will be involved - DHCP auto-assign or manually pick a non-DHCP-range address.

Note that if the devices talking to the disk ARE riding Wi-Fi, including the disk-to-router link, you WILL be susceptible to the common causes of corruption - incomplete updates from CPU to disk due to network failures.

 

[Minty]

In general NAS Boxes have the network capability in-built.
So they have a small processor and some memory and generally have a web based management function in built.

I use a single drive version, but multiple drive versions offer greater fault protection.
Something like this is a dual drive version

DiskStation® DS224+ | Synology Inc.

Compact data storage for edge deployments

www.synology.com

 

[The_Doc_Man]

What is a NAS box? and how much do they cost? and why would it be better than an ordinary external drive?

NAS is "Network attached storage" - which is the common type of external drive you buy these days. But a hard-attached drive WOULD be more stable.

 

[sonic8]

NAS is "Network attached storage" - which is the common type of external drive you buy these days.

I beg to differ.
A NAS device is basically a complete file server in a box. You attach the device itself to a network and it is then providing a network share independently of any of the other computers on the network.
An external drive is just a disk drive. You must attach it to a computer (or a router) for it to be usable and the computer/router must be configured to make the external drive available on the network.

 

[AccessBlaster]

If you only have one storage drive it might fail.
The NAS might support logical storage organization for redundancy and performance, such as mirroring and other RAID implementations.

 

[Gasman]

I have 2 Dlink DNS323 NAS boxes in Raid 1 configuration.
I have had one hard disk go bad, and rebuilt it from the other disk when the new one was installed.
One of them also acts as a media server to stream music all around my house.
You will be unlikely to get my model anymore, as they are quite old.

Hmm, seems you can still get them, but very expensive now. Most do not come with disks, so allow for that as well.

Amazon.co.uk : dlink nas

You can even install FreeNas on a PC and use that as a Nas server.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I beg to differ.
A NAS device is basically a complete file server in a box. You attach the device itself to a network and it is then providing a network share independently of any of the other computers on the network.
An external drive is just a disk drive. You must attach it to a computer (or a router) for it to be usable and the computer/router must be configured to make the external drive available on the network.

In my answer, did it SOUND like I mentioned only direct physical connections? An NAS is an external drive that connects via network. There ARE USB and fiber connection external drives for systems that have interfaces to support it, but networked drives are becoming more common. Particularly because as you say, they have a "file server in a chip" to handle the drive issues.

 

[Pat Hartman]

A NAS device is basically a complete file server in a box. You attach the device itself to a network and it is then providing a network share independently of any of the other computers on the network.

That was what I thought. I am trying to avoid installing the BE on a computer that is actively being used as a workstation. It's bad enough that the network is peer-to-peer and that all connections are WiFi. I was trying to find some middle ground between a separate PC that would be used only to house the BE and possibly to hold other shared files but not be used as a workstation and one of the existing PCs which are all used as workstations. A server is out of the question but they can probably rangle a donation of a 3-year old PC that some company wants to upgrade, just not sure how long it will take.

It seems like having the BE installed on an active workstation just increases the risk of corruption so I thought the separate drive might be an alternative. With the separate drive, we have two options --the connect to some workstation - which I understand how to do and know will work and ---- the attach the separate drive directly to the router which I have never done and I don't know whether it requires special types of drives or will any old external HD that I can buy for $25 work?

So MUST I buy a NAS drive or could a plain old $25 external 250 g HD connect to the router for this purpose? I don't want or need the HD to be exposed to the internet. It will only be local to the LAN. It seems like if the router has a USB, then any ordinary external drive can be plugged into it otherwise you need an NAS

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The external drive must have its own controller so unless you like to tinker up your own ATA or IDE cards, you will have to buy a properly equipped drive. You probably will be unable to scavenge a drive or get a cheap in-chassis drive for the router. In fact, the router probably doesn't have any interfaces except Ethernet connections and its Wi-Fi link.

If you had a suitable slot for it in your 3-year-old PC, you COULD just physically install it and make it a local drive for for the machine that will be its host. Then you simply go into drive properties to make the drive shared over your network.

IF you have a USB external disk drive, you will be able to plug it in to a USB port. IF you do that, you would want USB 3.0 compatibility if possible because USB 2.0 is dog-slow for disk connections when compared to other interfaces. It would be rare but not impossible to find an external drive that will talk Ethernet. A PCI-based machine might also accommodate a fiber-channel connection, which would be possible for more modern drives. (Don't hold your breath for finding "cheap" in combination with "fiber or Ethernet" though.)

If you have a Wi-Fi based drive, it would be unlikely for it to be highly visible. A determined hacker would first have to get inside your router and take over a machine within the subnet so it could get the ARP tables. Your hypothetical disk would not be likely to try to contact something outside the local sub-net because it has no browser. Therefore, its internal address would have no corresponding external address via Network Address Translation methods. Therefore, its direct external footprint would not exist. The only layers that would see its traffic would be constrained by the fact that the rules say that 192.168.x.x addresses are NEVER directly routable. If you don't establish a gateway portal for it to go outside the net, it cannot do so.

 

[Pat Hartman]

@The_Doc_Man Doc,
All I want to know is - does an external HD I plug into the USB port on a router work just like any other hd so that it will be suitable for an Access BE? I know if I plug the drive below into any of the PC's it can be shared by the network but I don't want it to be attached to a PC that is being used as a workstation. There seems to be little or no difference between using an internal HD on one of the nodes vs plugging in an external HD on one of the nodes. The charity does NOT have a PC that can be tasked as a file server on their peer to peer network. I do NOT want to have to install the Access BE on a PC that is also being used as a workstation, even on an external drive. So, I thought this type of external HD would work as an option in a less than optimal situation if it can be plugged into the router and used INDEPENDENTLY of any of the workstation nodes. The data is not sensitive. It is currently in spreadsheets. Access is a far better solution than spreadsheets but we don't like to run Access over WiFi - can't be helped. This this is a peer to peer network that is not hard-wired and all nodes are workstations. There is no server so there is no NON-workstation available to hold the BE. They should be able to get one but NOT TODAY. So, I'm looking for the best intirum setup.

I'm looking at something like this --- https://www.amazon.com/SUHSAI-Porta...-33-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9idGY&th=1

or a NAS drive. I still am not clear on whether I actually need a NAS or if the drive above works. So it's $20 or $130? If this is a temporary solution for possibly a couple of months until they can find a donor who can free up an old PC for them to use, I'd much rather spend $20 than $130.

What Is a NAS (Network Attached Storage)?

A NAS is useful for sharing a pool of storage between multiple computers or users on your local network.

www.howtogeek.com

 

[The_Doc_Man]

does an external HD I plug into the USB port on a router work just like any other hd so that it will be suitable for an Access BE?

I'm looking at something like this --- https://www.amazon.com/SUHSAI-Porta...-33-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9idGY&th=1

I didn't know for sure, and in fact was more than a bit skeptical. After some research I found these articles. It's going to depend on the router's abilities and the drive's abilities, but it appears that it IS possible, with perhaps a few gyrations.

How To Add USB Storage to a Wi-Fi Router

Learn how to easily add USB storage to your Wi-Fi router and create a centralized storage solution for your network step by step.

www.usbmemorydirect.com

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/computers/tips-and-solutions/share-your-external-hard-drive-to-your-wi-fi-network

 

[sonic8]

All I want to know is - does an external HD I plug into the USB port on a router work just like any other hd so that it will be suitable for an Access BE?

I cannot give a definitive answer.
In theory: yes.
However, there are a couple of potential gotchas.

• The router's operating system must support the SMB protocol for the file share. - Most (all?) do, but I'm not sure about supported and required/recommended protocol versions and their implications.
• USB has not as much bandwidth as an internal (SATA) connection to the hard drive. This issue might be aggravated by some old routers only supporting USB 2.0, which is much slower than the USB 3.0 protocol common today.
• The router's CPU and RAM is often not dimensioned to support the potentially quite heavy load on a file share used by a multi-user Access backend.

For me, the easiest way to find out whether it works in an environment would be to get a cheap HDD and just try if it performs sufficiently.

 

[Cotswold]

I installed dozens of systems without a server with Clipper and dBASE BE's as well as more in Access without any issues.
Small networks around 10 Users where one PC held the main data and the others 'fed' off it. Sometimes using Terminal Server at a remote site.
Mind you I will say that I never used WiFi at all as I had/have no faith in it for Access. (No such thing as WiFi in the last century )

One thing to look at could be the new Raspberry Pi5 and a 64GB USB which would be about $100 with the cooling fan and case. It is a 3Core, 2.4GHz ARM with 8GB of RAM. Probably better than any throw away PC from a doner. On a Raspberry Pi4, I have run Windows11 Pro onto a 120GB USB which it boots from and works just fine. A little bit peaceful on some Windows operations but no problem at all with Access software.
(at present the Pi5 is on back order, so not readily available for a week or so)

The Pi4 is 64bit but only 1.8GHz and 4GB of RAM, so the Pi5 is about 3 thimes faster. You'd get away with a 64GB USB drive, as Windows11 Pro uses less than 26GB. (the Windows11 Pro is free as a download online, see Raspberrytips.com)

 

[Pat Hartman]

For me, the easiest way to find out whether it works in an environment would be to get a cheap HDD and just try if it performs sufficiently.

Except that the client is 600 miles away.

@Cotswold they have what they have for a network so it will have to do. What I am trying to avoid is installing the BE on a workstation since they have NO SPARE PC to use as a server. That means that while the others are linking to the BE, one person will be actively doing stuff on that PC which is of course not a server.

I thought I provided sufficient useful facts about the situation but it seems I was not clear. I was hoping to get a definitive answer from someone here but seems like no one knows the actual difference between a NAS and a regular HD connected to the router so I'll just go to Best Buy on Monday. Today would be impossible given the people beating each other up for deals. I can't tell the client to buy something I don't know will work so I will buy the NAS and see if I can make it work and then ship it to them.

Thanks

 

[The_Doc_Man]

seems like no one knows the actual difference between a NAS and a regular HD connected to the router

I know the difference there. There is a direct correlation between the smarts on the "regular" HD and the probability that it will work while attached directly to the router.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Thanks

 

[Gasman]

Except that the client is 600 miles away.

@Cotswold they have what they have for a network so it will have to do. What I am trying to avoid is installing the BE on a workstation since they have NO SPARE PC to use as a server. That means that while the others are linking to the BE, one person will be actively doing stuff on that PC which is of course not a server.

I thought I provided sufficient useful facts about the situation but it seems I was not clear. I was hoping to get a definitive answer from someone here but seems like no one knows the actual difference between a NAS and a regular HD connected to the router so I'll just go to Best Buy on Monday. Today would be impossible given the people beating each other up for deals. I can't tell the client to buy something I don't know will work so I will buy the NAS and see if I can make it work and then ship it to them.

Thanks

Pat, the NAS will literally act as a server.
I even have a disk externally connected to one NAS to hold just downloads etc. Then everything is central to anything in the house.