Are you an atheist? (1 Viewer)

[nanscombe]

To Galaxiom and Old Man Devin:

As atheist how do you two account for the 'universal and timeless phenomenon of man's relationship with God' Evolution?

have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

The Earth is around 4,500,000,000 years old.
Homo Sapiens have been around for about 200,000 years.
So what was God doing for the other 4,499,800,000 years?

 

[Libre]

On an iPhone from my dentist's waiting room:
First the issue of the Biblical God.
I was careful not to invoke the bearded old man who floats on a cloud, with a huge scorecard and pencil with no eraser.
There is the concept of God, and there is religious doctrine that attempts to explain Him and create a list of rules that one must adhere to, in order to worship their God in the prescribed way.
I reject ALL that.
Then there is the genetic God, who opens up an "industrial sized can of worms".
That's the one I'm starting to open my mind to. I don't insist. I'm just saying, between that concept and an infinite series of random events resulting in an organized world - or universe (and I truly don't have an appreciable knowledge of astrophysics - do you?), my preference is for the former.
Today.

"The Earth is around 4,500,000,000 years old.
Homo Sapiens have been around for about 200,000 years.
So what was God doing for the other 4,499,800,000 years?"

I have an answer to that.
What's billions of years to God?
You plant an acorn and see an oak tree years later.
All part of the overall plan.

 

[dan-cat]

To ask me to accept that the universe is here by chance and physics alone is to ask me to accept the tower of sand theory, a billion trillion times over. God - or something like Him/Her/It (that we might as well call God) - must surely exist.

You may find this podcast interesting.

Specifically at 15:20

 

[Bladerunner]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains-god-spot-1641022.html

David R.

That still does not explain the 'timeless phenomenon of man's relationship with God', It just shows a method to get there and nothing more. Our brains seem to be very close to the same everywhere---reckon we are clones from some 'alien mad scientist'?? lol

Your article said: "They found that people of different religious persuasions and beliefs, as well as atheists, all tended to use the same electrical circuits in the brain to solve a perceived moral conundrum – and the same circuits were used when religiously-inclined people dealt with issues related to God."

Not much of an answer: so I take it you do not have one for that question. Here is another question that as an Atheist you should be able to answer.

If not from God---2. Why is there anything and how did it come into existence?

Have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

 

[dan-cat]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains-god-spot-1641022.html

The discovery that beliefs you hold are only mechanisms to help you survive. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Galaxiom]

Could you empty a bucket of sand from the top of a building, and by pure chance wind up with the grains of sand standing one atop the other in a vertical column, to form a tower of sand one grain wide and 1,000,000,000 grains high?

That is not a valid comparison with the nature of reality.

 

[Galaxiom]

If not from God---2. Why is there anything and how did it come into existence?

The development of the Universe from the first pixel of pure energy is well and truly explained by modern Physics. A few very simple rules run the whole show without the slightest need for any higher consciousness to guide anything at all.

Exactly how that first pixel formed is not known but physicists are working on it and there are many hypotheses. There really isn't much left for a god to do.

The God hypothesis runs into trouble immediately because it starts with the proposition that the most complex thing in the Universe was here first. There is no satisfactory explanation for the origin of that complex entity.

Moreover the idea of the existence of a creator is driven solely by the claim that there is such complexity in the Universe that something must have ordered it. God is obviously complex yet the creationists offer no explanation of how such complexity could arise spontaneously.

Adding God to any explanation generates far more difficult questions than it answers.

Modern cosmology begins with a simple burst of pure radiation from which all complexity develops according to the laws of physics.

What makes ore sense? Simple beginnings from which complexity develops or starting out with incredible complexity for which there is no explanation.

It is a no-brainer for anyone capable of rational analysis and the answer is not "God did it".

 

[dan-cat]

"The Earth is around 4,500,000,000 years old.
Homo Sapiens have been around for about 200,000 years.
So what was God doing for the other 4,499,800,000 years?"

I have an answer to that.
What's billions of years to God?
You plant an acorn and see an oak tree years later.
All part of the overall plan.

What is more likely to you?

A being that has been around for 0.0044% of Earth's existence has either

a) Managed to grasp the fundamental mechanics of how the cosmos has come to be

or

b) Created a comforting belief system that defines that being as the focal point of the cosmos.

 

[Bladerunner]

Quote: Galaxiom:
"The God hypothesis runs into trouble immediately because it starts with the proposition that the most complex thing in the Universe was here first. There is no satisfactory explanation for the origin of that complex entity."

Are you talking about Man here?

Have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner]

 

[Bladerunner]

What is more likely to you?

A being that has been around for 0.0044% of Earth's existence has either

a) Managed to grasp the fundamental mechanics of how the cosmos has come to be

or

b) Created a comforting belief system that defines that being as the focal point of the cosmos.

The being we are talking about created the heavens and earth. A little older than a few thousand years.

have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

 

[dan-cat]

The being we are talking about created the heavens and earth. A little older than a few thousand years.

have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

So you believe that radiometric dating is unreliable?

 

[Libre]

That is not a valid comparison with the nature of reality.

Galaxiom: as someone that appears to value logic and reason, you must be aware that simply stating that an argument is invalid is not a refutation of that argument.
But this is beside the point.
Most of my life I've had pretty much the same attitude that you expressed.
My concept of God is not exactly spiritual, and it is
DEFINITELY not biblical.
It is more that the organization of our universe - the known one at
least, implies an intelligence to me.
If you saw a table with a bunch of scrabble tiles arranged on it, and you read what it said, and you saw this exact paragraph written out, would it not be an absurd conclusion to propose that someone had just scattered the tiles without any thought and they happened to be arranged just so? Or would you propose that someone must have arranged them to form these sentences?
If there are more variations on a chess board after just several moves
than there are atoms in the universe (I've heard it said - and it may
not be literally true but it is in spirit), then the likelihood of
this paragraph occurring by random chance is so close to zero that
random chance could not account for it.
The actual universe is far more complex - and who says it started out with this complexity anyway? A life form - especially a multicellular one - especially an intelligent one, is a trillion times more complex than this paragraph or any chess position. A blade of grass has far more going on than the most complicated supercomputer ever conceived of.
But this goes deeper.
Is there a higher intelligence or is there not?
Nobody really knows now, do we? The physicists and the theologians may disagree fundamentally, but neither of them can prove their position. They can only rely on logic or faith, and neither of them can convince the other.
There is simply no proof one way or the other.
For the same buck as believing there is no God, you can just as well
believe there IS one.
And for whatever reason, believing is comforting.

 

[youyiyang]

Had we kill the Emperor, there would have been no peace. The way they did it has provided almost 70 years without a war. Of course China is pushing things and before long there will be some kind of a skirmish between China and Japan in that area. All because China feels that the USA presence is not to be feared anymore. Just like the liberals want it... let the world go to hell and we will keep to ourselves. Obama has already let them take some off-shore land (around the Philippines) from us without a word. What is next.

Have a nice Day :>)

Bladerunner

Yes, Japanese politics has been changed much from WWII and the major power has changed to Prime Minister not the Emperor any more. And I also don't know if Japanese will still do kamikaze practices today.
And I totally agree with Galaxiom that the Emperor should have been tried for war crimes and executed because the war command was sent from the Emperor directly so he should had been paid for that.
I admit USA is a great country of justice and it still govern the world today. But as any powers that have been existing in this planet in history, there are always injustice and shadows behind them, so that is why China struggles for. And I believe our planet is changing to a good direction that every country will have a right position in this world.
Since China is changing by the power of USA then why USA cannot be changed by other countries outside it?

 

[Mihail]

@youyiyang
Thank you for the answer.
Unfortunately I can't ask more because I don't know more.
Thank you again !

@Libre

I have an answer to that.
What's billions of years to God?

We can calculate this:
God Time: Gt = infinite
Earth Time: Et = 4,500,000,000
Percentage Et from Gt: EtGt% = Et/Gt * 100 % = 4,500,000,000 / infinite = 0 (zero) %
So, in ZERO time the God do His job.
But, in ZERO time nothing can be done.

Lets take a mathematical look to the Universe.
If the universe has a finite age will obtain again ZERO for the creation time (by a God)
In order to avoid this we should accept that even the Universe age is infinite.
Now we have (Ut = Universe time):
UtGt% = Ut/Gt * 100 % = infinite / infinite = ?????
a) If Ut < Gt then the limit is (again) Zero
b) If Ut > Gt then the limit is infinite. That mean that a God need a infinite numbers of year to create something = never;
Anyway this is obviously: Because the God is "younger" than the Universe He can't create something that already exists
c) So, mathematically, we must analyze one more possibility:
If Ut = Gt then the limit is 1 (One).
Now the answer seems to be reasonable, and the interpretation is: The Universe and the God are born at the same time. Each one create the other one and this reciprocal creation will exist as long as both (Universe and the God) will exist. So... for the infinite time. In other words the Creation never start and never end.

@Libre (again)
About your sand:

The probability is very small, indeed, but exist (it is greater than zero).
The Universe, Nature, God bla bla tried, as I demonstrate, fore infinite to arrange the sand.
So, the whole probability to obtain anything is... infinite. So, should be an infinite number of civilizations like ours. So should be an infinite numbers of civilizations identically with ours. So, at this time, another infinite numbers of guys writ an answer for an infinite numbers of poster that are named "Libre" )

How do you like this "demonstration" ?????????????

 

[nanscombe]

What is more likely to you?

A being that has been around for 0.0044% of Earth's existence has either

a) Managed to grasp the fundamental mechanics of how the cosmos has come to be

or

b) Created a comforting belief system that defines that being as the focal point of the cosmos.

"It is the work of God" is an easier phrase to admit to than "I don't know". But once you start to understand things for yourself then God starts to be replaced with facts.

The being we are talking about created the heavens and earth. A little older than a few thousand years.

have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

The Earth has been proven to have been around for approximately 4,500,000,000 years.

Evidence has been found to show that Man has been around for about 200,000 years.

As far as I am aware any evidence to show the hand of an omnipotent being, that stands up to scrutiny, has yet to be found.

Even if the Earth were formed and seeded with life by a technologically advanced species doesn't make them gods.

Two thousand years ago we were unable to restore sight to people, revive people after they were clinically dead, help barren women to conceive.

Would those acts now make us gods in the eyes of the people living in biblical times?

 

[Rabbie]

This point has been raised earlier but not yet answered. Where did God come from? It seems to be dodging the question just to say "This universe is too complex to have just evolved. It must have been created by someone who we will call God". Until you can explain where God came from then this is not a satisfactory answer.

 

[nanscombe]

... Until you can explain where God came from then this is not a satisfactory answer.

Once you have established who, and what, God is. You then ask yourself ... Who created God?

 

[Rabbie]

Once you have established who, and what, God is. You then ask yourself ... Who created God?

Exactly

It seems to become rather recursive. We have no way of knowing what happened before the Big Bang about 14 Billion years ago so why worry about it.

What concerns me more are the people that believe that everything was created about 10,000 years ago. I have seen reports that indicate that over 40% of US citizens believe this. If it were true then that particular god has a somewhat warped sense of humour. Why did he create so much evidence for a much older planet if that was the case. The really spooky bit was creating distant galaxies complete with light already most of the way towards us.

 

[Bladerunner]

So you believe that radiometric dating is unreliable?

No, I believe that science in the end will show that there is a God. The question I ask each of you to explain :Why is there anything and how did it come into existence?
There is only one answer and yes, God is older than the Universe(s). My world view (Theist).

Have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

 

[dan-cat]

No, I believe that science in the end will show that there is a God.

You've lost me. How does

The being we are talking about created the heavens and earth. A little older than a few thousand years.

tally with the accuracy of radiometric dating?

The question I ask each of you to explain :Why is there anything and how did it come into existence?
There is only one answer and yes, God is older than the Universe(s). My world view (Theist).

The truth does not require our explanation of it. It does not become something else because it remains beyond our capacity to demonstrate.

That is what the theist does. The theist demands answers now and fills the gaps with the undetectable. Comforting but not necessarily true.