A great loss.. (1 Viewer)

[KitaYama]

They're the ones making internet more secure, by finding the vulnerabilities and exploiting them. This exploitation makes developers take action out of fear and thus, the internet becomes more secure.

Are you out of your mind? who is making the internet insecure?
Hint : The hackers.
The hackers make the internet insecure, they get caught and they become security specialist to prevent other hackers.

Stupidity at its best.

 

[KitaYama]

Self-evaluating all the time can have a decremental effect on your wellbeing..

I appreciate your good intention, but the last thing I need is a piece of advice on self-evaluating from someone who's been doing hacking and his name has been in papers (per your own claim)
Thank you. But No. Keep the advice. I don't need it.

Why are hackers respected?

Hackers are respected for their knowledge and thinking out of the box approach.
Many of the good ones including Kevin had no manual/PDF to follow and through determination and perseverance managed to achieve is goals.

Have you ever thought about their victims? Have you ever thought how many lives they may have ruined?
The credit cards they steal? The confidential data they steal?

 

[KitaYama]

I was able to transfer my skull set to the UK Armed Forces and have been protecting against cyber attacks for many years...

Knowing how to attack a system means I know how to defend it better...

If people like you or what was his name (kevin?) don't try to hack into other systems, you don't need to know how to defend it.
Isn't it that obvious?
Making excuses is the only thing I see here.

 

[Edgar_]

Are you out of your mind? who is making the internet insecure?
Hint : The hackers.
The hackers make the internet insecure, they got caught and they become security specialist to prevent other hackers.

Stupidity at its best.

You are confused. I didn't say malicious hackers, I said hackers. There are two kinds and you think there is only one. The way naive people call them has been a hot debate for years, where malicious hackers used to be called crackers and now you have to address them as black-hat or malicious.

The exploitation, followed by communication to developers, which I mentioned, is what makes the internet more secure. Malicious hackers won't tell the developers about their findings. Cybersecurity specialists are white-hat hackers, or just hackers, for short, who demonstrate and communicate their findings so everybody can take measures against the attack of the other kind. If you think we'd be better off without people finding problems in your code, I wonder why you think testers exists. Or quality assurance departments. Or immunologists, if you want an analogy.

 

[KitaYama]

You are confused. I didn't say malicious hackers, I said hackers.

Great. Now we have two types of hackers. the good ones and the bad ones.
The good ones were a part of the bad ones to learn how to attack. Now that they know and learnt it (by being a bad one while learning), they have changed their mind and are trying to save our souls from the bad ones.
But nobody can talk about their dark past while they were in the bad circle.

And I have to thank them for securing me. And I don't need to think they were a part of the bad ones at some point in past.
Who knows? maybe some of the bad ones will try to secure my internet in future?
So why should I not respect them too.

Amen.

 

[Edgar_]

And I have to thank them for securing me. And I don't need to think they were a part of the bad ones at some point in past.
Who knows? maybe some of the bad ones will try to secure my internet in future?
So why should I not respect them too.

Could it be that you simply not believe in good will and professionalism?

Cops carry weapons, but you trust they will not be shooting you and instead they will take care of your security, right?
Doctors put you to sleep to cut you up and make a salad inside you, but you trust they will take care of your illness, right?

This is the same. There are bad guys and there are good guys.

 

[KitaYama]

Could it be that you simply not believe in good will and professionalism?

Cops carry weapons, but you trust they will not be shooting you and instead they will take care of your security, right?
Doctors put you to sleep to cut you up and make a salad inside you, but you trust they will take care of your illness, right?

I don't understand what you're trying to tell me.
To be a cop, there are tests. A lot of them. mentally and previous behavior.
They don't make a criminal a cop.

Doctors? How does it concern to a hacker?
I don't have any idea what you're talking about. How a good will comes to play? Did you read my responses? Did you understand what I'm saying?

I thought we're talking about our reactions when a hacker (like kevin) after years of stealing credit cards and being No1 in FBI wanted list get caught and tries to be forgiven by "I'll try to secure you"

 

[Edgar_]

I don't understand what you're trying to tell me.

Does the term "double edged sword" have any meaning for you?
Cops have a double edged nature, doctors and skilled computer users, as well as many others have that same nature.
If you're a good willed individual, you won't harm. That is the argument. You're trying to enclose all hackers into one single term, that is wrong.
You call cops to those who have good will, if they harm you on purpose, they're criminals.
You call doctors to those who have good will, if they harm you on purpose, they're criminals.
You call all hackers the same, but there will be those who won't harm you and there will be those who will, why do you insist in calling them the same?

That guy, Kevin, he was a criminal who went to prison, he paid the price. Then he became a good willed individual. Because of his good will, you're now safer from the bad guys. Yet, you say he does not deserve your respect. OK.

If this is your posture, then, I suppose, you do not believe in any justice system. Then, you think anyone who makes a little mistake out of poverty, naivety, maybe he didn't pay a tax or forgot to do it, maybe lied one day. This person should DIE. Does that sound good for you?

 

[KitaYama]

@Edgar_ You win.
This conversation is going nowhere. You're putting words in my mouth I never said.
I have a lot of more important things to do.
Thanks for taking your time and replies.

 

[Jason Lee Hayes]

I think many people have misconceptions about the hacking community in general which is driven by ignorance, wannabees and social media.

Even the word hackers or hacking paints its own picture but is fround upon within the professional community.

These misconceptions can lead to negative responses from many which is understandable.

 

[NauticalGent]

Kevin Mitnick was a legend, no doubt. But Tsutomu Shimomura was better.

I think the story of their "battle" made headlines in 1995-ish and I remember being very intrigued even though I didn't really understand what "hacking" was.

 

[Isaac]

For whom? The hackers community or security consultants?
Does it make him better than someone who robs a bank, just because he could sit in a chair and steal credit cards and confidential data?

I've almost wondered why people behave different when it comes to a cyber criminal.
If I rob a bank or ATM or break into someone's house, I'm a criminal and I'm a vermin of the society
But if I have the ability to hack into another system, oh my, I'm a celebrity. And my death would be a loss for humanity.

All of us have done bad, wrong things, in fact the majority of people have done something illegal as well, even if it's "small" - like driving recklessly, which really isn't small and endangers everyone around you's life.

This guy redeemed himself more than most.

Why is he any worse than you?

 

[Isaac]

Not intending to point a finger to anyone, but empathy is the most secular thing that there is, not at all a religious belief. I would even argue it is the opposite to a religious belief.

In that case, it makes sense why in recent years some people keep saying "empathy, not sympathy" - as if sympathy has now become a bad word or something.

I've tired of hearing that over the years, always people repeating "empathy, not sympathy". Why not sympathy? Actually it's GOOD to allow yourself to feel actual sympathy, aka compassion, aka you hurt a little as you observe or understand their hurt. People have become afraid of sympathy because it actually affects them. Empathy is easier to accomplish while remaining selfish, because you remain detached emotionally so it costs nothing. It is, however, still a good trait - but not 100% replacing compassion.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I'm going to hate myself in the morning for joining this conversation.

Criminals who serve their time and set themselves on the path to righteousness certainly deserve some credit for turning their lives around since it is not easy to do. But to elevate them to idol status seems to be wrong headed at best.

Hacking is wrong. I don't care what your intentions are. PERIOD. Do you walk down the street turning doorknobs and entering any home that isn't securely locked? "just to look around"??? Oops, I knocked over your extremely valuable Ming vase when I opened the door. Sorry, I didn't mean it so it doesn't count??? Who thinks like this?

 

[KitaYama]

Why is he any worse than you?

Are you serious? Can't you see the difference?
I haven't stollen million credit cards and sell them in black market.
I haven't break into government computers and private corporation to steal confidential data.
I have not been the No 1 man listed in FBI's most wanted criminals.

How do you dare to compare me shop-lifting 3 items from a store when I was 12 and return back them 3 days later with someone who has been sitting searching for several years to find a way to do unlawful cracking?
How can you compare me lie several times a day with a professional hacker?
How do you even allow yourself to ask me why I'm better than a professional criminal?
How can you compare the damage I caused by my wrong doings to the damage of an international hacker to the society?

@Isaac I know you're a religious person. It's fine what ever you believe.
But I've not been raised to believe that I can do whatever is wrong and then go to a church and confess to a priest and get clear like I was born again.
Here, where I live, if you do something wrong, you get a punishment for it. You go to prison for a while and when you come out, it doesn't mean you're forgiven. No. You're not. You have done something wrong and that wrong will stick to you the rest of your life. Because you had the will to do what you did, and you didn't stop to think about the consequences.

As an adult, you chose to go the wrong way. And it will stick to you, the rest of your life.
The time you spend in prison is just the punishment. and it doesn't mean you're forgiven.
Because the one who can forgive you is not the law. It's not the priest not even the God you believe in.
Only the victims can forgive a criminal. The law punishes you for what you did and the victims can choose to forgive you or not.

Now tell me if you believe his victims have forgiven him.
Somebody talked about mistakes everyone commit in his life.
Mistake? A mistake is when you take your parent's car without permission. A mistake is different with fraud. It's not a world-wide crime.

I may have made some mistakes in my life. BUT I'M NOT A CRIMINAL.

I tried to stop posting in this thread, But I couldn't stand your rude comparison between me and a world-wide professional criminal.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Great. Now we have two types of hackers. the good ones and the bad ones.
The good ones were a part of the bad ones to learn how to attack. Now that they know and learnt it (by being a bad one while learning), they have changed their mind and are trying to save our souls from the bad ones.
But nobody can talk about their dark past while they were in the bad circle.

And I have to thank them for securing me. And I don't need to think they were a part of the bad ones at some point in past.
Who knows? maybe some of the bad ones will try to secure my internet in future?
So why should I not respect them too.

Amen.

Yes, actually there ARE multiple hacker types. Before I retired from my Navy contracting job, I would have had the chance to take the Microsoft Certified Ethical Hacker course to become a Windows White Hat hacker. Instead of doing that, I retired for a combination of health, age, and other personal reasons, but if I had stayed, that might have been a course I could have enjoyed.

You have to understand that the best way to defend against something is to know how to DO something that people DON'T want done. That way, you can recognize attacks, track down the attackers, set traps for them, ... lots of protective actions. Once you know how to do the hacking, you know where to look, what to expect, how to recover, and in general build a shield around your computers and your customers.

I think you are being too harsh because you are making an unwarranted assumption. Not everyone learns right from wrong immediately. Some learn the technical skills and THEN learn about punishment. You want things done in a particular order, but life throws things at you in any order it pleases. Yes, Kevin was a bad boy. Then he learned how to be a good boy. It was just that he learned hacking first and ethical behavior second.

 

[Isaac]

Are you serious? Can't you see the difference?
I haven't stollen million credit cards and sell them in black market.
I haven't break into government computers and private corporation to steal confidential data.
I have not been the No 1 man listed in FBI's most wanted criminals.

How do you dare to compare me shop-lifting 3 items from a store when I was 12 and return back them 3 days later with someone who has been sitting searching for several years to find a way to do unlawful cracking?
How can you compare me lie several times a day with a professional hacker?
How do you even allow yourself to ask me why I'm better than a professional criminal?
How can you compare the damage I caused by my wrong doings to the damage of an international hacker to the society?

@Isaac I know you're a religious person. It's fine what ever you believe.
But I've not been raised to believe that I can do whatever is wrong and then go to a church and confess to a priest and get clear like I was born again.
Here, where I live, if you do something wrong, you get a punishment for it. You go to prison for a while and when you come out, it doesn't mean you're forgiven. No. You're not. You have done something wrong and that wrong will stick to you the rest of your life. Because you had the will to do what you did, and you didn't stop to think about the consequences.

As an adult, you chose to go the wrong way. And it will stick to you, the rest of your life.
The time you spend in prison is just the punishment. and it doesn't mean you're forgiven.
Because the one who can forgive you is not the law. It's not the priest not even the God you believe in.
Only the victims can forgive a criminal. The law punishes you for what you did and the victims can choose to forgive you or not.

Now tell me if you believe his victims have forgiven him.
Somebody talked about mistakes everyone commit in his life.
Mistake? A mistake is when you take your parent's car without permission. A mistake is different with fraud. It's not a world-wide crime.

I may have made some mistakes in my life. BUT I'M NOT A CRIMINAL.

I tried to stop posting in this thread, But I couldn't stand your rude comparison between me and a world-wide professional criminal.

You're comparing two, specially selected things for no useful reason whatsoever. You're comparing the best of yourself with the worst of someone else.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the sum total effects. How do YOU know that his good deeds for others don't outweigh the bad by 100 to one? And how do I know that you've done any good deeds for anyone in the past 10 years at all?

I'm not saying either way, my point is just that you don't know. You're assuming you know the sum total effect and what the deserving is based on only a tiny portion that you do know. And you're then having the audacity to compare it to the best of yourself. It doesn't make much sense if you think about it ..

 

[AccessBlaster]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, what if a hacker exposed the government's wrongdoing i.e. Covid-19 origin or voter fraud? Things that affect thousands of people. Is it still wrong or is all hacking bad?

I think about Edward Snowden while mostly a whistle-blower he also hacked. He exposed NSA spying on the American public.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

what if a hacker exposed the government's wrongdoings

No, that couldn't happen, your government is "snow White" the FBI is admired throughout the world. (By dictators,)

 

[Isaac]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, what if a hacker exposed the government's wrongdoing i.e. Covid-19 origin or voter fraud? Things that affect thousands of people. Is it still wrong or is all hacking bad?

I think about Edward Snowden while mostly a whistle-blower he also hacked. He exposed NSA spying on the American public.

I guess that's where breaking the social contract is a decision to be made, perhaps, when there is no other redress and redress simply must be had, so serious a thing is it.

Also in this thread we've mixed and matched and merged and fogged-up the differences between things like "good and bad" or "legal and illegal",
For example, Kita Yama took great offense to the very suggestion that they might be no better a person than whoever hacker in question - but then proceeded to point out legal vs. illegal things, rather than good vs. bad.

I know plenty of people who never break a law, but the way they treat their kids and other people in a moral sense - every day, 365/yr - ought to just about be criminal, it's so bad, so I was comparing more overall good, overall bad, whereas K was focusing on severity of crimes committed under the eyes of the law.

It's all open for debate.

I actually personally know a man who committed a crime that sent him to prison for 7 years, just a couple years ago. I've never done such a crime, and yet, I consider him a FAR better person than myself, because I know how he conducted himself in many other affairs over his lifetime, and I know how I conducted myself. The law may only add up a small % of things and fail to take anything else into consideration, but that's not reality, it's just the law.