American Health Insurance

[Mike375]

Actually for those who are unable to work it is free, try again

Not so. The amount of welfare people get is determined by where the other tax dollars go.

 

[Rich]

Not so. The amount of welfare people get is determined by where the other tax dollars go.

Do some research on welfare in this country then post when you know what you're talking about

 

[Mike375]

Do some research on welfare in this country then post when you know what you're talking about

$x is received by your gov't from the various forms of taxation plus different services they provide.

$y dollars goes out from the gov't for welfare and other gov't subsidised or supplied services.

Even if your gov't declared that certain payments to a category of person were to be independent of the relationship between $x and $y that has no bearing on the prices they will pay for various services or goods supplied by private business as well as many government provided services and goods.

A major factor (the major factor??) that determines the prices for goods and services is taxation. Not just the taxation paid by the business owner but also the tax payable by the employee. Bear in mind that the tax paid by the employee is in reality paid by the employer.

 

[Rich]

A major factor (the major factor??) that determines the prices for goods and services is taxation.

Crap! the major factor that determines the price is the profit required, followed by demand, competition etc, Tax is only paid on profit

 

[Brianwarnock]

If a person earns no money then everything they get is free to them, it don't matter how much it costs others.

Brian

 

[Mike375]

Crap! the major factor that determines the price is the profit required, followed by demand, competition etc, Tax is only paid on profit

Thus if there is no profit the goods and service will have aprice of $0


Tax is only paid on profit. Not so. A business operating at no profit (or even a loss) will be paying tax via employee salaries, indirect taxes. It is also indirectly paying tax to other businesses because of the goods or services it needs and thus contributing to the other business.

Go and check the total tax that has been paid with the sale/manufacture of a car. Don't forget to include income tax that was paid by employees and not just with the car maker but all of the industriess associated with the manufacture and marketing of the car.

 

[Mike375]

If a person earns no money then everything they get is free to them, it don't matter how much it costs others.

Brian

I assume you are referring to someone on a pension/welfare. If so, what you can buy is related to the price of the services or goods.

Are you trying to say that someone who earns $2 million a year is better off to cease work and go on welfare

 

[Rich]

Thus if there is no profit the goods and service will have aprice of $0


Tax is only paid on profit. Not so. A business operating at no profit (or even a loss) will be paying tax via employee salaries,

Wrong again, sole trader companies do not have employees, nor does it need to have a price of £0

 

[Mike375]

Wrong again, sole trader companies do not have employees, nor does it need to have a price of £0

Irrelevant. There will be x employees in the country at any given time and whether they all work at one company, ten companies or whatever, does not matter.

I am sure you are aware that the reason so much manufacturing is done in places like China is due to much lower cost of labour. A very large proportion of the labour cost in countries like England, US iof A and Australia is taxation

 

[GaryPanic]

Thus if there is no profit the goods and service will have aprice of $0


Tax is only paid on profit. Not so. A business operating at no profit (or even a loss) will be paying tax via employee salaries, indirect taxes. It is also indirectly paying tax to other businesses because of the goods or services it needs and thus contributing to the other business.

Go and check the total tax that has been paid with the sale/manufacture of a car. Don't forget to include income tax that was paid by employees and not just with the car maker but all of the industriess associated with the manufacture and marketing of the car.

Err --Tax only on profit ..no

tax on fags
tax on booze
VAT


when you come to Capital Gains tax or Business tax yes (profit only)

but tax on "items" 9/10 times it is on the cost inclusive of profit element

so a can of beans cost 30 pence inclusive of 5 pence profit and if tax was applied it would be on the 30p and not the 25p

the 5 pence profit if taxed again but as a business tax and not as an "item" tax

as to medicine or healthcare - there is always a cost to someone -
healthcare is a bit of a sticky problem to fund and who's eligable is that
if we cut it off to say the French - we would be called racist etc..
basically if you pay into the system you should be entitled to it -
this applies to housewives, and those who through no fault of their own cannot work .

no system is perfect , and each system used is probably onl;y good for x amount of years before it needs an overhaul reasoning behind this is - healthcare gets beter- new meds, new practices

if you looked back say 30 years then what was the number one killer or treatment
all the reaseach goes into this and sudden a cure-treatment is found the reduces the impact of this illness - so the number 1 illness changes every x years

also people are living longer -so as you get older your body starts to wear out and you need more attention -
new hips - new eyes (one for Brian- lol) etc - so the focus of med care has to change to meet this new challenge ...

We in the UK also have an added problem that the Healthcare works pensions have not been funded correctly(in my opinion) - and we are having to pay todays pensioners out of todays funds - instead of the pension being paid 40 years ago to fund the pensions of today -

a recent report stated that for evry £1 paid to Civil servants (doctors nurses, policemnt etc) .97 was having to be collected in todays tax's rather than from investments -

this is probably the biggest tax drain- and if this had been properly funded way back then the tax bill might have been lower by 2-3 percent (a guess on the % )

whoever gets into power (UK only on this one) - need to sort out
(1) the pernsion arrangements of civil servants and
(2) increase the retirement age for civil servants from 60 to at least 65

 

[GaryPanic]

Wrong again, sole trader companies do not have employees, nor does it need to have a price of £0

Sole traders - if they are set up as limited companies my need EL cover -
depending ont he class of business they are involved with
however as a rule if you are a sole trader then you cannot be an employee -
if a limited company then you might - solicitors set up partnerships can be EL

 

[Rich]

Err --Tax only on profit ..no

tax on fags
tax on booze
VAT


when you come to Capital Gains tax or Business tax yes (profit only)

 

[GaryPanic]

Wrong again, sole trader companies do not have employees, nor does it need to have a price of £0

Irrelevant. There will be x employees in the country at any given time and whether they all work at one company, ten companies or whatever, does not matter.

I am sure you are aware that the reason so much manufacturing is done in places like China is due to much lower cost of labour. A very large proportion of the labour cost in countries like England, US iof A and Australia is taxation

Yeap...- pretty much agree with this also currency and value of the currency has a impact

cost of labour
cost of transport
= goods price
then tax on this (import duty)

 

[GaryPanic]

Crap! the major factor that determines the price is the profit required, followed by demand, competition etc, Tax is only paid on profit

in reponse to your err.. question

 

[Brianwarnock]

Originally Posted by Brianwarnock
If a person earns no money then everything they get is free to them, it don't matter how much it costs others.

Brian

In response to the above Mike replied

I assume you are referring to someone on a pension/welfare. If so, what you can buy is related to the price of the services or goods.

Are you trying to say that someone who earns $2 million a year is better off to cease work and go on welfare

Anybody able to follow this logic?
I give up on the argument, a pity non of the American forum members haven't answered my genuine questions in my first post, but no doubt they spotted which way the thread was heading.

Brian

 

[GaryPanic]

No I cannot

Free meaning does it cost the person getting the care
however cost - the cost of the care is paid by society

so the argument kinda goes round in a circle

is healthcare free -yes and no yes at the point of contact
however the cost is paid by society

is this a perfect solution - no - but its the one the UK has adopted
on the basis that you get equal care under the system - is it open to abuse yes,
is there an alternative that the UK would accept - probably no , this free service has been ingrained into the UK culture

to change this would be hard

small changes are happening in dentist surgery - flat fees are charged
check up,
small work
major work

the intention of the UK health system was/is to look after the bottom x percentage of people , those that have money would go private anyway

 

[Brianwarnock]

is this a perfect solution - no - but its the one the UK has adopted
on the basis that you get equal care under the system - is it open to abuse yes,
is there an alternative that the UK would accept - probably no , this free service has been ingrained into the UK culture

to change this would be hard

The one simple change that could be made which has been highlighted recently as NICE has refused to sanction various drugs is the mixed approach of allowing patients to pay for part of their treatment without having to drop out of NHS treatment altogether.

Brian

 

[Mike375]

Brian

Let's say the cost of health care doubles. You continue to get the health care provided "free".

However, it is not really free since there will be an increase in the cost of goods and services that are not part of the health care system. It can be no other way because a rise in tax must happen.

The only way you can get something for free is if the provider of the goods and services provides them for free.

The gov't does not provide health care. Health care is provided (at a cost) by doctors, nurses and so on.

While it is true that you can go to the doctor and have $40,000 of services provided and not have to write a cheque.....that is only because you have already written the cheque. I assume that at some stage in the past you had a job or a business. I assume you consume goods and services other than health care.

There are certainly many pluses when the gov't acts as an agent between tax payers and health care providers. However, people who misconstrue health care as being free only serve to add to the cost of health care.

As a side not you are and have been a tax payer.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Mike,
You do not read my posts properly.

The Government does pay for the NHS, and the nurse and the doctors etc etc, however since the only money the government has comes from the tax payer the NHS is paid for by the taxpayer. Nobody has disputed that. What I have repeatedly said that it is free at the point of delivery, and since my wife does not pay direct taxation, and all other taxes would be the same to her whether she was ill or not, her treatment is free to her.

If a person's only income was from benefits which as an OAP, it is and based on my employement record, then I think it is difficult to argue that all of her treatment is not free to her, whatever the cost to others such as Rich, Col, or me.

Brian

 

[Rabbie]

The NHS in Britain has always been free at the point of delivery. Obviously it has to be paid for out of taxation so we do pay for it but in my opinion it is better to pay when I am healthy and able to work rather than when I am ill/injured.

The same pricipal applies to the police, emergency ervices etc. I pay for them by taxes not when I report a crime etc.