Guilty or Not Guilty? The George Floyd trial...

[Jon]

Has anybody been watching the case? I've watch far too much of it, maybe 10 to 15 hours of cross-examination. Do you think Derek Chauvin is guilty or not guilty?

P.S. I think OJ was innocent.

 

[Isaac]

I haven't watched it, just done a lot of reading that reported on it. A lot of incriminating evidence so far, for sure.

To me the most interesting aspects of the whole affair have more to do with the other officers' trials - especially the one that was a new hire, and essentially doing what he was told. That, and, which charge(s) are ultimately supported - second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter, etc.

Another thing to note is that, like many criminal cases, we (the public) pretty much knows the prosecution's case. I doubt that there will be much there that everyone doesn't already know, or partially know. The video, Chauvin's responses & phone call, his training, etc.
So to me the more interesting part comes in the defense portion. So far I am hearing a lot about different camera angles showing the knee not actually on the neck much of the time. I expect to hear a lot about: 1) Floyd's previous history of quickly ingesting substances during an arrest and saying he couldn't breathe, and 2) his body's then-current status with regard to drugs.

Lastly, I'll be curious to see whether or not the judge's refusal to grant a change of venue ends up being any solid ground for an appeal or not.

It will be interesting to learn how they approach all these issues. Will be long, I'm sure.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Chauvin used excessive force that the department chief says was outside of the department policy. Floyd had enough stuff in his system that it could have killed him even if all he did was sit down on a park bench. I think Chauvin is guilty of something like "involuntary manslaughter" or "negligent homicide" or whatever equivocation you use when someone materially contributes to someone else's death even though it was not their original intention. I don't know the laws of that state so can't tell you what they would call it.

 

[NauticalGent]

P.S. I think OJ was innocent.

I surely hope you are being sarcastic...!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I was trying to avoid that, but it is like picking at a sore...

Jon, if you honestly believe O.J. was innocent, I have some prime land to sell you in eastern New Orleans. I promise it is dry land at least sometimes.

 

[Jon]

Where do I sign?

If the glove don't fit...

 

[Jon]

The case is not as clear-cut as the optics suggest. What do you folks think Floyd died of, without Googling answers? I just want to get a feel for what you think.

Most of the coverage on the news channels and papers are negative for Chauvin. Then again, you have to be a brave channel to say anything different, for fear of being lynched.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

The case is not as clear-cut as the optics suggest.

I was watching it this morning, there's a UK channel devoted to it, which is interesting in itself!

My impression is that George Floyd was a big guy! I think I would try my best to keep him down, whether I would kneel on his neck like that or not, I don't know. But for 10 minutes or so? Now that is strange, you try holding a position like that for 10-minutes that bit doesn't make sense to me... After 5 minutes, I would be saying to one of my colleagues, come on it's your turn, have a go, you hold him down a bit... So was it personal?

MURDER?
Murder is when you intentionally kill somebody, now it wasn't that, that wasn't his intention.

Did kneeling on the guys neck like that kill him? Again my impression a big man, with a big neck, strong! It didn't look to me like the windpipe was being compressed, or the veins around the neck, which when compressed correctly can cause you to pass out. It looks more to me like something went wrong with poor George. Be interesting to see what evidence the autopsy produces.


Christ knows what will happen at the end of the trial, whether he convicted of murder or not, it's going to be a flash point for more violence.

 

[Jon]

Expect riots, whatever the verdict, unless they bring back hanging.

Yes, George Flloyd was about 6' 5", had worked as a bouncer and was 223lbs. Derek Chauvin was 5'9" and only 154lbs. There was a huge disparity in size and strength.

What UK channel is develoted to the trial?

 

[NauticalGent]

My impression is that George Floyd was a big guy! I think I would try my best to keep him down, whether I would kneel on his neck like that or not, I don't know. But for 10 minutes or so? Now that is strange, you try holding a position like that for 10-minutes that bit doesn't make sense to me... After 5 minutes, I would be saying to one of my colleagues, come on it's your turn, have a go, you hold him down a bit... So was it personal?

Police are human too and subject to human frailties. They are trained to do a job and have agreed to the BS that comes with it. I personally could not be in law-enforcement: I do not trust myself to remain calm and not take it personal and any disrespect to my authority I fear would be treated with a heavy-hand. But that's me. They have agreed to "serve and protect" and use the least amount of force possible. The prolonged pinning him down seemed excessive - but then again, I was not there.

MURDER?
Murder is when you intentionally kill somebody, now it wasn't that, that wasn't his intention.

I do not think so. At a minimum malpractice. At worst, involuntary manslaughter.

 

[moke123]

Murder is when you intentionally kill somebody, now it wasn't that, that wasn't his intention.

Depends on the degree. Chauvin is charged with 2nd and 3rd degree. I don't believe intent to kill is an element of these charges.
He is also charged with manslaughter2 which is negligence based.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

What UK channel is develoted to the trial?

FreeView - Channel 89 - Court TV - program - Death of George Floyd murder trial

 

[Jon]

I think the way the trial works is that the prosecution brings all their witnesses first, and then later on the defence will bring theirs. The defence hasn't started calling their own witnesses yet.

 

[Jon]

Chauvin used excessive force that the department chief says was outside of the department policy.

The defences argument is that the chief of police is more a politician, and not dealing with training or day to day activities. They are so far removed from making arrests that they are not the right person to consult regarding application of use of force. The chief hasn't arrested anybody in many years, for example. And perhaps the chief has no recent training on arrest use of force techniques.

 

[moke123]

They've had numerous training officers testify already. The Chief has oversight of the policies that the training is based on.

 

[Jon]

The Chief has oversight of the policies that the training is based on.

This is the defences point. The chief has oversight, but is not an expert on the topic. They cannot be, since they are a generalist dealing with many issues.

 

[Jon]

There was an interesting issue that was brought up from the doctor who pronounced George Floyd dead. When asked about the cause of death, he said that at that point in time Asphyxiation was “more likely than the other possibilities” as to Floyd’s cause of death. This raises three distinct issues, as I see it.

Firstly, "more likely than the other possibilities" does not mean 95% certain. If you had 10 possibilities, you only need to have 11% confidence in one of them (asphyxiation), with 8 other possiblities at 10% and one at 9% to make up 100%. Therefore, 11% confidence would be enough to make this statement true: "more likely than the other possibilities". In other words, asphyxiation could potentially have an approximately 1 in 10 chance of being the likely cause.

Secondly, there is ambiguity in the phrase though. So say the doctor meant "more likely than the other possibilities" COMBINED. He didn't say this, but let us say he meant it. Then you only have to be 51% confident that aspyxiation was the most likely cause. Does beyond all reasonable doubt mean you have to be 95% confident?

Lastly, he said that was what he thought was the most likley cause of death "at the time". But at that time, he only had limited information. He has more information now, such as George Floyds' history of drug use, drugs in the system, tumour that causes increased adrenaline, heart arrhythmia and so on. Therefore, his opinion now may be different to his opinion at the time.

 

[moke123]

The chief is only one of nearly 400 listed witnesses.

So far these UOF witnesses testified:

• Inspector Katie Blackwell, who was the commander of the MPD's training division at the time of Floyd's death[62]
• Lieutenant Johnny Mercil, state’s expert on MPD use-of-force policy and training; testified he had kept a suspect physically restrained until EMS had arrived on scene. Defence declared they will recall him as a defence witness.
• Sergeant Jody Stiger, LAPD expert witness on use-of-force tactics and policy.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Once the person is handcuffed the police are responsible for their safety. They cannot stay face down for very long due to suffocation risk.

 

[Jon]

The chief is only one of nearly 400 listed witnesses.

My comments were regarding the testimony of the chief of police.