I believe Slavery was an Evolutionary Step...

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Over the past few years, I’ve learned a great deal from Dr. Jordan Peterson. One of the key insights is that much of our thinking and behavior is shaped by instinct. These instincts aren’t just uniquely human—they trace back through the evolutionary chain, not only to mammals but all the way to the simplest life forms, even amoebas.

Evolution clearly operates not only in the physical realm but also in the way our actions and instincts develop. From my perspective, slavery itself can be seen as an evolutionary step—one that played a significant role in shaping human societies and development.

I’d be interested in hearing different viewpoints. Does anyone want to debate this idea?
 
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Since you mentioned "human development" I have to consider that you also mean "humans enslaving other humans." (I know, it is rather obvious, but sometimes you need to be clear where you are going.) Let's explore the "evolution" idea, at least, by asking an implied question or two.

There is a basic principle that something persists (on the evolutionary time-line) if there is an advantage for it to persist or at least that there is no disadvantage associated with it (i.e. to persist, you must gain advantage or at worst break even). For slavery to persist, there must be a persistent reason. BUT there is also a secondary effect here. Evolution includes an element commonly called "survival of the fittest." To uphold the premise that slavery is in some way evolutionary, you must ALSO explain why the less fit nonetheless survive. It even gets worse than that, since there is only one (human) race and thus you cannot actually claim a racial advantage - the slavers and enslaved are of the same race. (This latter point is proved by multi-generational cross-fertility between the groups.)

It is also possible to discuss behavior that leads to slavery or other variants of dominance, but there, we open Pandora's Box of ways of dominance, including physical, sexual, monetary, political, intellectual.... In that sense, you could say that slavery is actually a hold-over of the tendency of tribes of animals (not limited to humans) to establish dominance over a territory, to assure "the ascendancy of me and mine over thee and thine." In which case you would have to say that slavery per se is merely a symptom of our saurian territorial instincts based on the survival factor that a herd of critters must have a certain square footage to support themselves, to have sustainable food sources sufficient not only for the males but for their mates or breeding critters.

Tribes would thus chase away other tribes so they could have larger hunting grounds. Males in a herd would chase away rivals for the best females (or the most, or both). And in modern terms, businesses compete and hope they can sink their competition.

Therefore, my question is whether your premise includes the possibility that slavery is merely one manifestation of evolutionary tendencies for tribal survival behavior, in this case by cutting off the access of the dominated to a means of survival.

That should be enough to start at least SOME discussion.
 
Consider the economic angle. Today, we have many automated devices (machines) that save us personal labor. In primitive per-industrial societies that meant that if you wanted to wash your clothes you had to do it yourself. Expend personal effort in labor and time.

Logically, what would you do with the inhabitants of an "enemy" town or with individuals who break your town's (tribe's) societal culture? Kill them?
That is a waste of "free" labor (machine). Better to have someone else "forced" to do your work you. So the inhabitants of "enemy" towns and individuals who break societal views become your "machinery" (labor saving device and property) to provide the extra labor to your family and/or tribe for a higher standard of living.
 
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It occurred to me that the winner of a warring group would often kill all of the males in the opposing force.
See, for example, the Amalekites. Killed all the adult males, enslaved the women and children. See the book of Samuel for an account of the incident. It's Biblical, so it goes back pretty far. In fact, that was the time just after Exodus and before the time of the book of Kings, specifically before David (1010 BCE) and Solomon (970 BCE) or somewhat over 3000 years ago.

I realised a better option might be to enslave the opposing force. This is obviously a step in the right direction
I'm not sure how you can characterize this as "right direction" without having cast your own morals onto that situation. Not that your morals are wrong OR right... but rather, that statement presumes that evolution is going to make a moral choice and - so far as I know - evolution has no morals. Evolution doesn't always resolve differences - but might lead to symbiosis (a truce) at some point. For evolution, the choice is always "survive - or don't." <<<Sudden mental association: Yoda voice saying "There is no try, ... there is only do or die." >>>

I mean it's obvious something like this happened because we have all survived and we don't go around killing each other!
Ah, but the answer to that is that somewhere in this mix: you have to distinguish between nature and nurture.

Moral behavior (not killing your rival) is the result of at least some degree of nurture, I think. The laws of Man that eventually became part of the 10 commandments simply represent that if you are a bad neighbor and do bad things (theft, adultery, violence, murder), you will be cast out of the tribe and sent to live alone in the wilderness - pretty much a death sentence. Expulsion from the tribe appears to have been a common punishment in the time prior to the beginnings of urbanization, or at least some anthropologists believe so. Tribal people knew that and so learned from their parents or from witnessing exile (of others) as a child that if you did certain things, you got sent away and might not survive the experience.
 
If that was a Cajun lion, his next act would be against the frog because Cajun-fried frog legs are a real delicacy. Do you know if the lion was merely stopping the snake from getting what he wanted later?
 
Of course, what everyone forgets is that the British who sold the slaves GOT them from the victors in a tribal war. Slaves were "spoils of war" in Africa at the time that the first slaves were sold to North American land owners. Tribal warfare was commonplace in Africa at that time, and in fact is still commonplace. As recently as 1994, there was a war between two ethnic tribes, the Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda. If you take a look at what is going on in the Darfur region in Sudan, you will find that slavery is rampant, particularly sex slavery as the result of that conflict.
 
My home city of Bristol was built on the riches from slavery. Edward Colston was a prolific slave trader, and Bristol made millions from the USA who needed slaves. In Bristol, there are many examples of how slave money benefitted the city. If it wasn't for slaves, Bristol would have to rely more on smuggling and exploitation of women for dubious activities. Slaves were more lucrative though.
Col
 
My home city of Bristol was built on the riches from slavery. Edward Colston was a prolific slave trader, and Bristol made millions from the USA who needed slaves. In Bristol, there are many examples of how slave money benefitted the city. If it wasn't for slaves, Bristol would have to rely more on smuggling and exploitation of women for dubious activities. Slaves were more lucrative though.
Col
Thank you for the brief info on the history of Bristol, I know two people from my home country who are currently studying MSc at the University of Bristol.
 
Interesting topic, I was surprised to find out that the King of Congo was the one offering slaves to the King of Portugal, I always heard and learned at school that he Europeans used to raid Africa and capturing free people, but there are the letters from the King of Congo to prove me wrong.
Anyway slavery is a very sad chapter in human history... it still happens today and it has nothing to do with skin colour.
 
Most people have no idea regarding the extent of slavery TODAY around the world.
What makes you think that? We are not all stupid, despite what you yanks think. You think you're so knowledgeable, here's news for you - you're not.
[Sentence redacted]

COMMENT EDITED: REMOVED ABUSIVE LANGUAGE.
EDITED BY: THE_DOC_MAN, 9/20/22

Col
 
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Col, you know that I don't get totally bent out of shape on most of your posts. I'll tweak you a bit, chide you a bit, and let it slip. But human trafficking is a continuing tragedy around the world. And based on security briefings I used to get regarding overseas travel while I was with the U.S. Navy, I'm going to side with Pat on this one. She is correct that people in general - ALL OVER THE WORLD - do not fully appreciate the extent to which trafficking occurs. There are countries where it is well-known, but equally there are countries where it is not recognized as a problem.

Part of that relates to those cultures where women are relegated to 2nd-class citizen roles. Part of it relates to the abject poverty in so many of the emerging nations. Between forced labor trafficking and sex trafficking, women are predominantly the victims, where even pre-teen young women and girls are sold. Nor do they have many choices.

You may indeed be one of the more erudite citizens who better appreciates how often it occurs, and for that knowledge I congratulate you. But Pat's concern is legitimate and the crime in question is horrific. If you took umbrage with her comment, then take umbrage with mine, too. Just know that human trafficking is so widespread as to be almost an epidemic. And it happens in the UK, too.

Based on a relatively recent (but not after 2020) U.N. report, only 29% of the member nations of the U.N. report more than 10 convictions a year. Another 17% report between 1 and 10 convictions per year. That means that 54% of the U.N. members either don't have laws against that crime (22%) or don't have the means to deal with the crime. Conviction rates run less than 50% even in the U.K. for the period covered by the report's detailed history - from 2004-2007, where they had complete legal histories.
 
It's just that it is such a patronising post giving the impression that Pat thinks she is so great that not many people know what she (or Americans) know.

Yes we all know slavery in whatever form is rife in many countries including the UK and the USA. Just put it with the 100's of other things to sort out, in the meantime keep paying the japanese prozzies, they need the money to send home for their families.
Col
 
Do you have anything to support this? I'm really interested.
There was an article about it in the paper. It said that Japanese and Chinese families tend to all live in one house with grandparents and aunties and uncles, so with limited income it can be difficult. So the daughter comes to the UK (or wherever) works as a sex worker, often known as an escort for good money (especially in london) and sends back a high percentage of the money. Usually they say they are working as a waitress or something as their real job would be frowned upon.
Col
 
I will not make an apologist-style excuse out of this but there is a distinction between what Col just described and sex trafficking. If the sex worker has the ability to send money back to her family, she is not a victim of sex trafficking in sense being described previously. A woman who has been trafficked in the way that the U.N. report described would not keep any of the money and would be dependent on her "owner" for sustenance. The kind of woman Col described is an independent contractor - who still might be breaking the law. But she is free enough to get money that she can distribute according to HER choice. This isn't good either, but it is not the subject of Pat's original discussion that triggered this diversion.
 

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