Immigration (applies to any country)

[Isaac]

I'm wondering what people's positions are about immigration - who should be let in, who should we stop letting in, pretty much open to anything.
This can apply whether you live in the UK (in fact maybe especially then ), the USA, or anywhere else.
Of course we are all pretty much nations of immigrants, but new decisions have to be made once a country is fully populated, so to speak.

Trump has said he will prioritize criminals (who are criminals for some reason in addition to being in the USA illegally), but what's your longer-term perspective on it?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Immigration should be limited based on a knowledge of past costs per immigrant and an educated look at the economic and social effect of such immigration. It cannot be right, regardless of human interest issues, to allow nearly unlimited immigration.

There is another consideration: People who flee difficult times will flock to the place they think will be easier on them. But making their lives easier also weakens them in terms of societal survival - and it weakens us. Maybe where they were living was so corrupt and violent that lots of people died. But to go to a land of "milk and honey" makes you lazy.

The Roman Empire fell because of immigration. Different details of course, but same general result. According to an article from History.COM, Rome fell due to several factors that potentially apply here and now to various degrees. The parallels are there. Here is their list, annotated.

1. Invasion by Barbarians - we have Islamic and Cartel and Street Gang immigration, much like the invasion of the Huns and Goths, and they have all set up their own little internal enclaves. This cannot be good.

2. Internal financial crises - caused by overspending. (See also findings of DOGE.) The stresses lead to over-taxation and inflation. There was also a labor deficit because nobody wanted to work any more, leading to agricultural issues and diminished food supply.

3. Rise of Eastern Empire - in this case, rise of Islam? This ancient link to modern times might be a bit more tenuous, but it is true that we have conflicts with our eastern neighbors.

4. Over-expansion leading to increases in military spending - trying to be the world's policeman doesn't seem to be working and it costs a lot!

5. Government corruption and political instability - the adversarial nature of our politics has intensified in the last 20+ years. In the last four years we've had incompetent leadership from Sleepy Joe not to mention the corruption implicit in preemptive presidential pardons. Trump's first term was marred by excessive Liberal resistance to change and he was further made ineffective by Mother Nature's COVID pandemic.

6. Arrival of the Huns and immigration of barbarian tribes - our immigration policies (or lack of same) pushed by liberals matches up with this historical immigration that went a lot further than just "barbarians at the gates."

7. Increased influence of Christianity - replaced now by the increased influence of other systems that eroded personal values. In essence, the power structure, in making concessions to multiple social forces, diluted itself.

8. Weakening of Roman legions - corresponding to relatively modern weakening of U.S. Military. In the 1940s we fought a two-front all-out war. It took four years to finish it, but we did. Current estimates suggest that we cannot currently manage a 1 1/2 front all out war.

The Roman Empire didn't fall apart instantly. It slowly crumbled. I wonder if that is going to happen to us. Then there are days where I ask if we haven't already started crumbling.

 

[AccessBlaster]

For starters, people who want to become American citizens should want to assimilate into our culture, a novel idea, I know.

They should be able to support themselves or have a sponsor who will vouch for them financially. Citizenship should be a choice, not just a necessity.

Streamline the application process for those who chose to apply legally, and keep denying those who don't.

Lastly maybe there should a probation period?

 

[Isaac]

I really like the assimilation into our culture piece, and the ability to support themselves piece.
Also I think there should be a committment or maybe even proof of completion, of them studying English enough so that they have a rudimentary grasp of a bit of basic conversation. There are people who have been here for 25 years and speak zero english, causing an undue burden on our society and services - that's just wrong. Contrast that with what we as Americans do - I mean, you move to a state like CA/AZ/TX and you pick up a little bit of spanish probably just from living there - yet we have immigrants so ISOLATED into their conclaves that they refuse to learn even some.

 

[AccessBlaster]

We are unnecessarily delaying many would be international applicants because of the chaos at the southern border, it's FUBAR.

 

[Steve R.]

A lot to consider:

• The substance of the text "Of course we are all pretty much nations of immigrants," has been maliciously abused (distorted). We are a nation of immigrants from Europe. This "rallying" cry that we are a "nation of immigrants" has been dishonestly distorted into a racist policy that (poor) immigrants should be "imported" from South America, Central America, Middle East, and Africa and that they have a "right" to be in the US. That encouraging people to come from Europe is somehow racist. We are now seeing that some European countries are now having adverse reactions resulting from the "refugees" that they have accepted into their respective countries.
• This may seem off topic, but one of the "hot" topics in the US is the decline of our educational system. In seeing the comparison of the US to other countries, it appears (unscientific observation) that countries with mono-cultures have the highest educational achievement. The implication is that "diversity" is actually a detriment to achieving educational success. The illegal immigration influx in the name of "diversity" is apparently resulting in classrooms becoming full of students who don't speak English and who may not appreciate being in the classroom. There is a quick side-note, Asian students outperform and have even been vilified by the progressive left for their achievements. So one could infer that the progressive left does not want success in our educational system.
• You wrote: "new decisions have to be made once a country is fully populated". The US is "full". Fredrick Jackson Turner proclaimed the closure of the US frontier around 1890. Very briefly, we now live in a society where those that don't fit in now have to be cared for by a welfare government because they have no where else to go. In the old days, prior to 1900, those people were simply kicked into the "wilderness" where they either made it or died.
  • But in the context of today, every immigrants brings environmental decay. Especially if they come from a low carbon footprint economy and come here, which is a high carbon footprint economy.
  • The management of large populations results in the loss of freedoms and greater government regulation. Think of large cities like New York and Los Angeles. Why are they resoundingly voting for Democrats? Because they need government services. Rural areas tend to vote for limited government because they don't need massive government services. Unfortunately rural areas are disappearing because the US is "full".
• @The_Doc_Man reminded me a realpolitik geopolitical implication of immigration. You do not want to give asylum to disgruntled people from oppressive countries such as Venezuela. Allowing the disgruntled to emigrate to the US makes dictators such a Maduro stronger. It also makes the US weaker as we have to devote resources (welfare) to take care of them.

 

[Isaac]

Oh, another thing - I don't have proof of this, nor exact numbers, but my impression at least is that the visa-granting policies are really messed up.
I am pretty sure, based on my experiences in Mexico, that there are plenty and tons of Mexicans with programming skills. Yet you never see them, you mostly see Indians. Same with Asians, I think they are skilled aplenty, but you don't see many , just Indians.

Whyever are we granting tons and tons of visas to a country across the world from us, but not our immediate next door neighbor?
Maybe there'd be less chaos at the southern border if we gave more visas to skilled Mexicans in the first place.

But the nepotism keeps Indians in charge.

 

[Steve R.]

The Roman Empire didn't fall apart instantly. It slowly crumbled. I wonder if that is going to happen to us. Then there are days where I ask if we haven't already started crumbling.

I always like to toss in that the US was at its high-point on July 20, 1969 when the Apollo 11 landed on the moon. Its been downhill ever since. But there may be periods of recovery, such as the reelection of Trump. Only time will tell if the recovery will be temporary or long-term.

 

[AngelSpeaks]

Follow the laws and don't force your customs on your new country. Be productive from day one. Several family members are immigrants, all followed the law.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

This may seem off topic, but one of the "hot" topics in the US is the decline of our educational system

Not off topic when talking of immigration. I see the problem as, primarily, a dilution of effectiveness.

There is an old south Louisiana joke about a Cajun guy who got a job driving 18-wheeler trucks on interstate routes. The joke itself isn't that funny in this context, but part of it IS relevant. The trucking company's training brochure touted 3 weeks of training before they would start driving the routes in question. But they didn't take into account that FIRST they would have to "unlearn" old Boudreaux how to drive Cajun style and THEN they could get on to training him to drive interstate style. So he didn't get home for six weeks, twice as long as anticipated.

The same concept has to apply in schools. Kids have to learn to speak English. But that usually means special classes for English as a 2nd Language. We need to have classes for adults as well - but that leads to extra resources that aren't cheap. Further, the people who actually need those classes would IN GENERAL (but not uniformly) be people whose ability to pay is limited, so paying for such classes would depend on tax-funded social services.

 

[Isaac]

Of the various volunteer opportunities I've considered, teaching people English was one I almost did, but then found out they had what they needed in that particular organization/area. But yeah that's a thorny issue. We have to provide education, but, we can't be providing education in multiple languages. I think kids learn pretty fast in an Immersion model though

 

[Pat Hartman]

I think they are skilled aplenty, but you don't see many , just Indians.

That's because due to the British occupation most of the Indians speak English, sort of.

The "nation of immigrants" camp thinks you can just throw a bunch of people who have no common language, culture, religion, or belief system together and expect them to "stick". Pretty stupid concept and shows a total lack of understanding of the clannishness of humans. Why do you think every new group of immigrants was soundly rejected by the people who came before them? They were a threat to the society at large, even though the actual differences between the Irish and British were miniscule when you compare them to the differences we have with the Muslims who start out by hating us and our way of life and their religion tells them that we MUST be converted or killed. And yet we still import them by the thousands every year because apparently the Constitution is a suicide pact.

We have become much more "enlightened" as a society regarding those who are "different" but the new waves of immigrants rarely speak the language and these days are very poor and badly educated. This makes them a burden on society and many come simply to suck at the teat of the American welfare system. They don't actually have any desire to assimilate and BE one of us. They are here to take and are quite willing to lie cheat and steal to achieve their goals.

We should not and do not accept people who are willing to commit crimes to enter and stay in this country. PERIOD. Our immigration system is the most generous in the entire world. We take in more refugees most years than any other country and we naturalize more permanent residents. Not to mention the millions who come on temporary work visas. Stealing your way in is not acceptable. Once the criminals are disposed of, the administration needs to get to work on the "good" people.

In the past, our immigration policy has been used to discriminate against people from certain countries or ethnic groups. A far better (for us) method is to discriminate by favoring people who speak English, have needed job skills, and/or who can support themselves and start businesses which can provide jobs for Americans. We want people who want to be Americans. We don't want people who hate us and want to change everything about us, you know, like the Democrats. Too bad we can't expel citizens.