Insider Trading......how is it determined

Mike375

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Just finished watching the movie Wall Street...again:)

If an investor starts to seek information about a company whose shares he is interested in buying is there some point where he should not seek any more information. :D

What about a person who already owns shares in a company and the share price is falling. However, he has "inside information" and because of that he retains his shares. His mate down the road says "Bill is keeping those shares and seems to know what he is doing so I will buy some"
 
Just finished watching the movie Wall Street...again:)

If an investor starts to seek information about a company whose shares he is interested in buying is there some point where he should not seek any more information. :D

What about a person who already owns shares in a company and the share price is falling. However, he has "inside information" and because of that he retains his shares. His mate down the road says "Bill is keeping those shares and seems to know what he is doing so I will buy some"


Sounds like you've seen that film too many times.... :rolleyes::D
 
If an investor starts to seek information about a company whose shares he is interested in buying is there some point where he should not seek any more information. :D

I guess this would depend on who you ask. I would say the typical answer would be no. Unless, that person happens to be in a position where he is more likely to get inside information. Then the answer may be yes. But Joe Six Pack wont get that close, so no reason for him to stop getting info.

What about a person who already owns shares in a company and the share price is falling. However, he has "inside information" and because of that he retains his shares. His mate down the road says "Bill is keeping those shares and seems to know what he is doing so I will buy some"

Taking no action isn't illegal. The reason people with inside knowledge cant sell their shares is because they would be screwing an innocent unsuspecting buyer. Its not fair for a seller to dupe a buyer like that. There are similar laws in other areas, like lemon laws in the auto industry. So if the owner's shares are about to rise in value and he takes no action, I don't see how this would be misconstrued as insider trading.

Of course, my few accounting classes don't make me an expert on the matter, so if someone wants to correct me, be my guest.
 
"Insider Trading" consists primarily of taking advantage of information that is confidential within the company.

In the film, Martin Sheen told Charlie Sheen about what the airline was going to do. Charlie told Michael Douglas. Michael bought airline stock. This was insider trading.

The guy (I forget his name) told Martha Stewart that the stock was going to go down because the company had a huge failure it was trying to cover up. Martha sold her stock. Insider trading.

The ABC Corporation had just signed a $5 Billion contract with the government. You read about it in the paper. You buy ABC stock. Public information. NOT insider trading.
 
I know what Insider Trading is and what Martin told Charlie:D however, if someone had interest in buying shares in the company and starts to investigate etc is there some point when they must stop investigating:)

And what exactly is public knowledge. Surely as you begin to investigate you gather information that would not be public knowledge.

What about people (just about everyone) who have knowledge because they work in an industry.
 
I know what Insider Trading is and what Martin told Charlie:D however, if someone had interest in buying shares in the company and starts to investigate etc is there some point when they must stop investigating:)

And what exactly is public knowledge. Surely as you begin to investigate you gather information that would not be public knowledge.

What about people (just about everyone) who have knowledge because they work in an industry.

Generally I would say that anyone with a fiduciary responsibility, to share holders, or employees, would have more restrictions than others, and certainly anyone connected to the board or on the management team.
In some cases for example holders of preferred stocks are not allowed to sell their shares for a certain time period after an initial offering.
By the way, the release of insider information, can in some cases create large swings in the stock price, so actually doing nothing could be considered inside trading.
 
Generally I would say that anyone with a fiduciary responsibility, to share holders, or employees, would have more restrictions than others, and certainly anyone connected to the board or on the management team.
In some cases for example holders of preferred stocks are not allowed to sell their shares for a certain time period after an initial offering.
By the way, the release of insider information, can in some cases create large swings in the stock price, so actually doing nothing could be considered inside trading.

Insider trading is a tough one to prove in court. First they have to prove you bought or sold shares. Since most people who do it have some sort of cutout to cover their behinds, it's difficult.
Next, they have to prove you bought or sold based on inside info. Unless someone confesses (as happened to Martha Stewart) it's again tough to prove.

Mike, essentially it depends on the source of the information you used to buy or sell the shares. If you're like most of us, you have very little access to inside information. If you can point to a specific article in a newspaper or a specific story on the TV news that motivated your buy or sell, you should be OK.

BTW, if Martha had just fessed up right away, she probably would have got off with a fine and probation.
 
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Insider trading is a tough one to prove in court. First they have to prove you bought or sold shares. Since most people who do it have some sort of cutout to cover their behinds, it's difficult.
Next, they have to prove you bought or sold based on inside info. Unless someone confesses (as happened to Martha Stewart) it's again tough to prove.

Mike, essentially it depends on the source of the information you used to buy or sell the shares. If you're like most of us, you have very little access to inside information. If you can point to a specific article in a newspaper or a specific story on the TV news that motivated your buy or sell, you should be OK.

BTW, if Martha had just fessed up right away, she probably would have got off with a fine and probation.

There is a twist in this with regard to the actual original question.
"If an investor starts to seek information about a company whose shares he is interested in buying is there some point where he should not seek any more information.".
The answer depends not only on from whom or from where you seek and or get your info, but it also depends on what you know, or by exclusion, what you don't know.
It is certainly reasonable to gather any available information during consideration of investment decisions.
In fact, in many circumstances, there is a fiduciary responsibility to do so to every extent possible within the law.
Oddly enough, this is actually one circumstance where "ignorance" could actually be a defense.
If you're gathering info, and you find it, but either cannot be proven to know the source, or if you know the source you cannot be proven to know the source is "inside", you would be not guilty under the statutes as I read them.

Interestingly, there is some legal precedence in this area.
I forget the case, but it may well have actual real world application to the Bernie Madoff case, although not directly related to insider knowledge, it is indirectly related.

There was another set of law suits regarding another investment Ponzi scheme.
Under the law, damaged parties could actually fight against each other if it can be shown that one party actually received money redemptions (supposed return on investment or actual withdrawal) before the scheme came to light.
The supreme court (I can't remember if it was the state or federal level) ruled that if it could be shown that an investor who received redemptions also had knowledge of, or concern of something being illegitimate with the investment, damaged parties could "claw" that redemption back into the pool of assets for distribution amongst all damaged parties. However, if it could NOT be shown the redeeming party had any knowledge of it, or any concern if it, the redeemed funds could NOT be clawed back into the pool.

Essentially showing that ignorance was, in that case, a defense.

This is indirectly related to your question in that while it does not specifically address stock transactions proper, it does address "what inside info you know" and "when you knew it was inside info" and to an extent from whom you learned it .

So I believe the answer to your question is multi tiered:
1. You should learn all the info you can about investments including inside info if available
2. You should know if the info is inside, or exert reasonable efforts to ascertain this status
3. If you have information, or believe you may have information which could remotely qualify as insider info, you should act accordingly with regard to the laws.

I believe we need to start getting honorable in our world.

Just because a prosecutor may not be able to prove in court that we did a thing does not mean we did not do it.
Greed is NOT good as it is so cited in this movie.
We should not be living our individual lives based on what a prosecutor can prove.
Insider trading is wrong and it matters not if you don't get caught as to whether or not others are damaged.
Hopefully, this movie will soon be an anachronism.
 
I have always understood "Insider Trading" to be using information available to you through your position in a company that is not available to the market in General too decide when to buy or sell shares.

ie If you worked for a company that was about to suddenly go bust and you sell your shares just before the announcement then you would be guilty of "Insider Trading". It would not be Insider Trading if you didn't sell your shares before your company announced a significant new invention - it would be if you started buying up the shares before this was announced.
 
I have always understood "Insider Trading" to be using information available to you through your position in a company that is not available to the market in General too decide when to buy or sell shares.

ie If you worked for a company that was about to suddenly go bust and you sell your shares just before the announcement then you would be guilty of "Insider Trading". It would not be Insider Trading if you didn't sell your shares before your company announced a significant new invention - it would be if you started buying up the shares before this was announced.

What about insurance agents who are not employed by an insurance company but in fact can often see good or bad coming before anyone else.

Access developers might see things about microsoft that would not be available to the general public.

And again, someone investigates a company with a view to buying (or selling) their shares, is there a point where he has cease seeking information because the next stage would cross the Insider Trading line.
 
I have always understood "Insider Trading" to be using information available to you through your position in a company that is not available to the market in General too decide when to buy or sell shares.
That description would certainly qualify as Insider Trading, but it is not limited to this scenario.
If you're leaned up against the bar at a tavern, talking with the stranger next to you, and for whatever reason this person divulges information to you, and does not qualify it as such, and you do not know this person is an insider, and did not seek that person out, I do not believe acting on that information would qualify as criminal Insider Trading.
In other words, you need not necessarily be an Insider to be guilty of Insider Trading. But if you're not an Insider, just acting on what is technically Insider info does not necessarily make you guilty.

ie If you worked for a company that was about to suddenly go bust and you sell your shares just before the announcement then you would be guilty of "Insider Trading". It would not be Insider Trading if you didn't sell your shares before your company announced a significant new invention - it would be if you started buying up the shares before this was announced.
I don't think this is necessarily complete. It depends on your position in the company, and how you learned the insider info.
Not all employees are bound by Insider Trading laws, but even if you're not normally bound, if you learn Insider info, and you know it is insider info, you cannot act on it.
However, if you're an assembly line worker, and the co-worker next to you tells you during break that he heard the company was going bust, and you sell your shares, I do not believe that is insider info. Unqualified info, even if accurate, qualifies as rumor, not insider info.
 
Bilbo, in the interests of Brevity(a much underrated virtue) I was perhaps a little too concise. I would agree with you in your example about the assembly line worker that that is not insider trading. However if for example you are tipped off by a senior manager and you know he is a senior manager then that would be insider trading.

The key issue is the use of priviledged information that is not available to the market as a whole that defines Insider Trading. As said earlier with any illegal act the burden of proof remains with the prosecution
 
What about insurance agents who are not employed by an insurance company but in fact can often see good or bad coming before anyone else.
Without specific insider info about the impacts, positive or negative, of what the agent is seeing from the outside, drawing conclusions about stock prices and acting on those conclusions would not be insider trading. The agent is only seeing part of the picture.


Access developers might see things about microsoft that would not be available to the general public.
Unless you're talking about seeing specific data pertinant to a companies success or lack thereof, this is like the Insurance Agent analogy. Suppositions are not factual and may not be baased on the entire view that insiders have.
However, I do believe that confidentiality clauses should apply, if signed in advance, to any Access developer which encounters sensitive data for any of his/her clients. I have personally signed many confidentiality agreements. Yes, acting on inside data while covered under a confidentiality agreement would certainly be Insider Trading as well as a breech of the confidentiality agreement.
And again, someone investigates a company with a view to buying (or selling) their shares, is there a point where he has cease seeking information because the next stage would cross the Insider Trading line.
Yes, there certainly is a point where common/public knowledge ends and Insider knowledge begins. Whether or not a person crosses that line is an individual choice, but a person faced with that choice needs to understand the application of the law on either side of that distinction (public vs. inside) and act honorably and legally.
 
What about insurance agents who are not employed by an insurance company but in fact can often see good or bad coming before anyone else.

Access developers might see things about microsoft that would not be available to the general public.

And again, someone investigates a company with a view to buying (or selling) their shares, is there a point where he has cease seeking information because the next stage would cross the Insider Trading line.
I do not believe that this would constitute insider trading in the case of the Access developers.

With the case of the insurance agents it would depend on the source of the information. If they were given information that Insurance Company X was about to crash by a senior member of that company then it might be Insider tading tho' hard to prove. If they reach that conclusion from seeing business flow etc then they are just using their specialist knowledge of the insurance industry so it would not be insider trading IMO.
 
Bilbo, in the interests of Brevity(a much underrated virtue) I was perhaps a little too concise.
Touché! Yes, I know I can be verbose at times, but in all fairness, legal ins and outs are anything but brief.


I would agree with you in your example about the assembly line worker that that is not insider trading. However if for example you are tipped off by a senior manager and you know he is a senior manager then that would be insider trading.
Absolutely.

Here is an interesting scenario I just conjured up.

An assembly worker for a small, yet publically traded company (let's say a paint factory) is at his station working his normal duties.
Suddenly, a fire breaks out and the worker comes to the conclusion that the ONLY factory this company operates is about to be completely destroyed along with all of the inventory (paint factories are very volatile).
The Chief Executive Officer is watching from his corner office window and sees the fire and comes to the same conclusion.
Both the assembly worker and the CEO quickly pick up the phone and call their broker and issue orders to sell all shares.

Did either of them Inside Trade???
 
In your scenario I suspect the assembly worker would not not have a significant holding and so would not attract attention. The CEO might have a large holding but there is no guarantee he would be able to sell his shares - a buyer would have to be found first.:D
 
Both the assembly-line guy and the CEO insider-traded if they acted BEFORE the fire trucks and the "news at 11" crew arrived. However, the assembly-line guy will not benefit by it. His widow might. What is that turkey doing calling his broker when a fire breaks out?

I believe there is a series of tests:

1. Did you know something that was not publicly available?

2. Did you act on it to your advantage at the time when it was still not public knowledge?

3. Did your action constitute a difference from what you would have done in the absence of such information?

If the answer is NO to any of those, you would perhaps be tried but not convicted of Insider Trading.
 
Mike's from Australia, Doc from the US, Rabbie from the UK and I'm from Canada.

What do you want to bet the rules for "Insider Trading" are different in each country. In addition there are the precidents in your jurisdiction that may or may not be accepted elsewhere.

Mike, If you are planning somthing, talk to a securities lawyer first. A few hundred now could save you thousands for the lawyer you'll need at your trial.
 
No plans. I was just curious because a few of us had been talking about it and Wall Street just happened to be on TV a couple of days later.

My view is that the Insider Trader laws were specifically aimed at the CEO etc. but by the very nature of the situation it is very a grey area.

Give you an example in Australia. A few years ago Australia had its largest corporate collapse, a general insurance company. Just before the "event" the Australian governing body Prudential Regulations Authority and Australian Securities and Investment Commission had the company at "all go and full marks". Different insurance salesmen on the street knew the place was about to come apart.

As a side note i am not a supporter of all the laws that try make share trading "all safe and cosy". Those laws have much in common with many other laws.

1) The average person is misled and hence gets burnt, some of them think it is like investing some sort of bank deposit.

2) The above happens because the laws don't work but the average person thinks they do work so they walk straight into the fan.
 

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