Louisiana Americans burning British flags (1 Viewer)

[Kryst51]

But is is all about money - this is the reason why BP is concerned about 'capturing' the oil as it continues to fountain from the broken conduit rather then stemming the leak. The need to cut their losses.
The people and the area affected do not need volunteers - they need money - aside from compensating them for loss they should be offered jobs to clean up the mess and be compensated at the same wage they would have expected from their usual persuit of making a living. They will then be able to afford to spend the money to ensure the colateral income loss is prevented. The offer to compensate people for their debts from this crisis would probably not extend to all of the local area businesses or other businesses who depend on the local industries.

Then what do they do after cleanup is done, they have given up their jobs.... besides, that's assuming that people are willing to give up their jobs.... I think it would be rather short-sided to do that. Plus- people who volunteer, want to, so why not use their man-power.... Not only does it help the general effort to clean-up, but provides support to the people who live in the area, and lets them know that they are not alone in their effort, as I am sure a lot of them are volunteering as well (Just opinion, of course, no facts to back up these ideas)

 

[MrsGorilla]

Then what do they do after cleanup is done, they have given up their jobs.... besides, that's assuming that people are willing to give up their jobs.... I think it would be rather short-sided to do that. Plus- people who volunteer, want to, so why not use their man-power.... Not only does it help the general effort to clean-up, but provides support to the people who live in the area, and lets them know that they are not alone in their effort, as I am sure a lot of them are volunteering as well (Just opinion, of course, no facts to back up these ideas)

I somewhat think he may have been referring to offering jobs to those (like fishermen, etc.) whose livelihoods will already be affected due to this, rather than just giving them handouts as compensation. Thus it kills two birds with one stone, to pardon the expression. The people affected are being paid to help clean up the mess, so their income is replaced with this instead of what it would have been, and the mess gets cleaned up at the same time. Maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Kryst51]

I somewhat think he may have been referring to offering jobs to those (like fishermen, etc.) whose livelihoods will already be affected due to this, rather than just giving them handouts as compensation. Thus it kills two birds with one stone, to pardon the expression. The people affected are being paid to help clean up the mess, so their income is replaced with this instead of what it would have been, and the mess gets cleaned up at the same time. Maybe I'm wrong?

Aha, I see, it makes more sense then....

Edit: Sometimes I can be dense.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I saw a harrowing news report yesterday showing a bird (? a pelican - I couldn't tell) covered in oil unable to move - the look in the birds eye was crying out "please help me".

Forget the bickering, lets sort the disaster, fight over the money later.

I know hundreds of people are doing what they can, as is BP (whatever that stands for, British or not) this is a huge problem, hundreds of birds and animals and sealife creatures will die.

Col: From a Louisiana resident, thank you! This is IMHO exactly correct. And the odds are it was either a pelican, a heron, or a seagull that you saw, given the birds that frequent the oil-soaked marsh area. You are right, it is heart-wrenching to see the dead birds and those still living but forever traumatized.

I see the spill-related reports as local news both on TV and in the local news rag. Not once have I seen any incident on any local newscast or any description in the newspaper that involved burning any flags. Of course, I might have missed a brief article, but if so, the referenced incident must have been very isolated in order for me to have missed it. In which case, the writer of the "news" article that triggered this thread was making a VERY faulty generalization.

The articles that have come out locally make it clear that this was yet another example of poor government oversight, just like Katrina's damage to drainage canal levees was the result of poor inspection by the US Army Corps of Engineers.

In this case, the Minerals Management Services folks are responsible for oil-drilling rig testing and safety inspections. It has come out that the responsible (?) parties skipped a couple of expensive safety tests that would have revealed hydraulic leaks in the safety shutoff cap that was supposed to be able to completely stop the flow in case of a blow-out. It uses something called a "ram valve" that totally blocks the pipe in multiple places.

They also ignored some gas bursts coming up the pipe that should have warned them of a problem, and they further skipped a test that would have verified (or in this case, disproven) the integrity of the concrete sheath that had been formed in that well.

I agree that the USA tends to use more oil than some. I make no excuses. Our nation is built on transportation of goods from point A to point B and we have a fairly large area to cover with that transportation. Transportation takes energy and we already use "hub" systems as much as possible to minimize the number of vehicles taking long routes.

Personally, I do my best to by an energy-efficient vehicle that meets my needs but not much more than that. I don't drive a small car but the one I drive doesn't have the biggest engine. It has enough to carry the loads I sometimes have to carry and that's it. I fully agree that a Hummer or other land barge is a bad joke. Sports cars that can drive 160 Mph when most states have 70 Mph speed limits represents another bad joke. But so far, market forces haven't completely killed production of those vehicles. The credit crunch MIGHT get ride of Hummer as a personal vehicle, though the military still needs the original version for combat transportation.

As to the Bhopal incident, I agree that Union Carbide acted reprehensibly. Environmental and human tragedies caused by greed that leads to cutting safety corners is unacceptable when it happens. There should be NO monetary cap on the cleanup cost, and the liability cost should only have a cap AFTER the cleanup is complete - and I DO mean complete.

I blame the US Republican party's laissez-faire attitude towards business as being responsible for the world-wide credit problems and lax regulatory safeguards. They tend to reduce the requirements on businesses so that they can make more profit. Not ONLY because business likes this, but because Republicans traditionally want to reduce the cost of government by downsizing it. But they take it to the point that there are no longer enough people to do an effective job in maintaining proper oversight or inspections. And that is why I'm not a registered Republican.

I see the problem as polarization of the two main parties so that middle-of-the-road solutions that balance safety and profitability are never addressed. I honestly think we would do better to have at least four or five political parties so that we would be FORCED to maintain a sense of compromise.

There, I've vented. Hope I made some sense to at least some of you.

 

[Vassago]

There, I've vented. Hope I made some sense to at least some of you.

I actually can't argue with any of those points. Good post!

 

[Thales750]

BP America on your side.

VENICE, La. – Professor Peter Lutz is listed in BP's 2009 response plan for a Gulf of Mexico oil spill as a national wildlife expert. He died in 2005.
Under the heading "sensitive biological resources," the plan lists marine mammals including walruses, sea otters, sea lions and seals. None lives anywhere near the Gulf.
The names and phone numbers of several Texas A&M University marine life specialists are wrong. So are the numbers for marine mammal stranding network offices in Louisiana and Florida, which are no longer in service.
BP PLC's 582-page regional spill plan for the Gulf, and its 52-page, site-specific plan for the Deepwater Horizon rig are riddled with omissions and glaring errors, according to an Associated Press analysis that details how BP officials have pretty much been making it up as they go along. The lengthy plans approved by the federal government last year before BP drilled its ill-fated well vastly understate the dangers posed by an uncontrolled leak and vastly overstate the company's preparedness to deal with one.
Sen. Bill Nelson, a Florida Democrat, said in an e-mail Wednesday to the AP that he and Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-California, have asked for a criminal investigation of some of the company's claims.
"The AP report paints a picture of a company that was making it up as it went along, while telling regulators it had the full capability to deal with a major spill," Nelson said in an e-mail. "We know that wasn't true."
In its Deepwater Horizon plan, the British oil giant stated: "BP Exploration and Production Inc. has the capability to respond, to the maximum extent practicable, to a worst case discharge, or a substantial threat of such a discharge, resulting from the activities proposed in our Exploration Plan."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100609/ap_on_bi_ge/us_gulf_oil_spill_sketchy_plans

 

[Fifty2One]

You not dense - I read your posts and they are far from dense.

The other reason to have the local persons be employed to do the clean up is that they will learn a marketable trade other then their previous lively hood. It is going to take more then just getting the surface of the gulf free of oil to clean up the mess. And the good people who are suffering have a lot of pride in being hard working people, so emotionally and spiritually they NEED to have work to do to be who they are...
The local tourist trade is going to also take a whack - if people want so desparately to go the any of the gulf states and do something - take a vacation there and spend your money - I am sure the local restaurants, hotels and tourist attractions would be more then welcoming to anyone who wants to lay down some money. The entire gulf perimeter economy is in crisis.

Aha, I see, it makes more sense then....

Edit: Sometimes I can be dense.

 

[Kryst51]

You not dense - I read your posts and they are far from dense.

The other reason to have the local persons be employed to do the clean up is that they will learn a marketable trade other then their previous lively hood. It is going to take more then just getting the surface of the gulf free of oil to clean up the mess. And the good people who are suffering have a lot of pride in being hard working people, so emotionally and spiritually they NEED to have work to do to be who they are...
The local tourist trade is going to also take a whack - if people want so desparately to go the any of the gulf states and do something - take a vacation there and spend your money - I am sure the local restaurants, hotels and tourist attractions would be more then welcoming to anyone who wants to lay down some money. The entire gulf perimeter economy is in crisis.

Thanks for the compliment.

What people do for a living in these places didn't cross my mind when I replied to you. I think that some money will be spent by the volunteers, surely, on hotels and such the tourist attractions probably won't be as used. I know a woman who has a scheduled vacation to FL and was happy that it hadn't all been planned as beach time. I hadn't really though about that, but I agree that these communities are effected by the loss of tourism as well as all of the economic implications and loss of jobs.

 

[Fifty2One]

There is always a cascade effect when there is a localized financial crisis, something which usually escapes the notice of many people as the news media only publishes statistics of % of unemployed. In localized areas the closure of a single industry can completely wipe a town off the map as the cash flow dwindles and other businesses are impacted by the loss of cashflow. The cascade is not often 'covered' in situations such as being faced by the gulf fishing industry, the people who went out in the boats might have their losses minimized but no one is going to go into the local restaurants or stores and give then a wad of cash... no one is going to go to perhaps a company up in New England and compensate them for the shrimp nets they did not sell to the gulf this season (or the next few years) or the other suppliers of goods and services to the areas...

 

[Kryst51]

There is always a cascade effect when there is a localized financial crisis, something which usually escapes the notice of many people as the news media only publishes statistics of % of unemployed. In localized areas the closure of a single industry can completely wipe a town off the map as the cash flow dwindles and other businesses are impacted by the loss of cashflow. The cascade is not often 'covered' in situations such as being faced by the gulf fishing industry, the people who went out in the boats might have their losses minimized but no one is going to go into the local restaurants or stores and give then a wad of cash... no one is going to go to perhaps a company up in New England and compensate them for the shrimp nets they did not sell to the gulf this season (or the next few years) or the other suppliers of goods and services to the areas...

There is of course, no good side to this. It's a disaster in every sense of the word. I suppose the only hope/encouraging thought (excluding for the moment environmental impact) is that given the recession people have already gotten used to cutting back their budgets, or have reduced debt to manage current economic layout, so maybe this won't be as big a blow as it could have been if this had happened two years, or even a year ago. Granted it is a HUGE blow nonetheless, I don't mean to downplay its size.

 

[Fifty2One]

Experiencing the recession has indeed helped to hone some people's coping skills. It has also helped people to rekindle their spirits in regards to humility and focussing on what is baseline important in their lives. Sadly for many people it takes a HUGE upset such as this to be a 'life changing event' and many can only see the negative. Some can see that their strength and faith can get them past this.

 

[Kryst51]

Experiencing the recession has indeed helped to hone some people's coping skills. It has also helped people to rekindle their spirits in regards to humility and focussing on what is baseline important in their lives. Sadly for many people it takes a HUGE upset such as this to be a 'life changing event' and many can only see the negative. Some can see that their strength and faith can get them past this.

I think we could wish that this would be the response by everyone... humility that is. We can't always be in control, or foresee everything. We think, in general, that we have a good bead on things. But it just isn't so, and I don't mean just the religious (though certainly they do too). I think humility on everyone's part would reduce blame, and increase response and quicker resolution, and quicker moving on afterward. But I think the scars of this will be seen long after the clean-up has occurred, not only economically but in people's hearts also. (there will probably be bitterness and blame for many years to come, some will buck up and continue making their own lives what they can, others won't and will expect restitution instead, right or wrong)

Eidt: I say the last part thinking that the government won't be able to "fix" the problem. I don't think there will ever be "enough" restitution, some people will never be given their due in this situation.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Some guys out at work today were talking about a weekend fishing trip they took to an area near the coastline to the ENE of New Orleans, closer to the Mississippi state line. They are already seeing little "floaters" of oil working their way up some of the natural channels in the marsh. They didn't run into any dead fish but they didn't see any live ones in their favorite spots, either.

The economic crunch is now taking hold. P&J Oyster Co., which has been in business for 130+ years here in New Orleans, is unable to find local oysters. They are starting to buy from other nearby oyster beds, but the demand on those beds will deplete them all too soon. Not to mention that for some of the nearby sites will be oil-clogged themselves within days to weeks. P&J is now warning its employees that layoffs cannot be avoided once the reasonably close sites are depleted.

Some of the local restaurants that specialize in seafood are putting up "apology" signs. Others are raising prices to reflect the need to import fish from farther away. New Orleans cuisine is heavily based on local seafood. This will literally kill some restaurants. Our world-famous cuisine will be a shadow of its former self, thus impairing our tourist trade. That will in turn ripple down to the hospitality and hotel industry. There is also an offshore drilling ban that has already caused lots of crews to leave the area.

No, I'm not crazy. The truth is, more drill sites are "dry" rather than productive. This well was actually abnormal in many ways and is the first well in over 35 years to do anything like this. But by making the exploration crews leave, their service providers are going to suffer. And the exodus has started.

Because of post-Katrina construction, New Orleans was pretty much recession-proof for a long time. But this will be the nail in the coffin for our local economy. The state was already in a financial crunch because of the credit crunch affecting property taxes and because Katrina-damaged homes cannot be assessed at the same value as they once had. Businesses aren't bringing in sales tax revenue that strongly, either.

It is impossible to enumerate all of the Katrina-related and oil-spill related problems, but the state of Louisiana is going to have to adopt an austerity budget that will make people leave for other states. Welfare and medicaid recipients will suffer enormously. Tax hikes won't work here (historically speaking) because our state constitution requires the legislature to put big tax hikes on the ballot. Tax approval here is remarkably unlikely because our state politicians are not trusted that well.

Why did these cruddy politicians make it into office, you ask? Because they took advantage of the old principle called "lesser of two evils." Our most recent election was a face-off between a former TV news anchorwoman and political-machine crony who was also a traffic-ticket scofflaw. The news anchor won. But you can imagine the mud slinging match that went on.

 

[dan-cat]

The economic crunch is now taking hold. P&J Oyster Co., which has been in business for 130+ years here in New Orleans, is unable to find local oysters. They are starting to buy from other nearby oyster beds, but the demand on those beds will deplete them all too soon.

How is demand outweighing supply symptomatic of an economic downturn?

Sounds like more care should have been taken by them to preserve the natural resource they rely on to turn a profit.

 

[Kryst51]

Docman, It is sure that the road ahead will be long and hard. I will be praying for New Orleans. Are there any ways to transition economic reliance from the seafood industry to something else for the remainder of this crisis? A long shot surely, but there has got to be something that can be done. (In addition to clean-up, and time for things to begin growing/sustaining life again.)

 

[Pauldohert]

How is demand outweighing supply symptomatic of an economic downturn?

Sounds like more care should have been taken by them to preserve the natural resource they rely on to turn a profit.

I think he meant the lack of supply was the economic crunch part of the oil spill, not the wider credit crunch.

May be wrong.

 

[dan-cat]

I think he meant the lack of supply was the economic crunch part of the oil spill, not the wider credit crunch.

May be wrong.

That would make more sense.

I found this report on the issue. The owner of the business seems to be talking more of his fears of what could happen rather than what is actually happening at the minute.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

What is happening is that demand is steady but supply is dwindling.

Dan-Cat, how do you preserve your sources of merchandise when an unforseen accident occurs? And in particular, when the merchandise is one that is successfully farmed only based on a limited resource - the coastline - and that resource is being fouled by the accident. I can grow fresh-water catfish in a pond inland, no sweat. Mississippi does this all the time. But oysters thrive in a particular ecological niche that is now being threatened. How do you preserve your sources other than by building 25- to 50-mile long booms across the front of the wetlands? And remember that the wetlands are federally protected so that a private person CANNOT build such a boom anyway.

I saw a newspaper report with a long interview and analysis. The guy is worried about the future, but he is already seeing some of his suppliers drying up.

Kryst, our problem with diversifying is that we were doing that when Katrina ate our city infrastructure. We were trying to attract other industries, but after the storm made it clear that we were flood prone, a lot of business don't want to move here. We don't want to move elsewhere because this is our home. So it is the proverbial rock and hard place decision.

I'll be honest. If I were not married at the moment, I would be living closer to my mother's family in central Alabama, where they diversified after the steel-mill industry changed. (BTW, it took them a good 25 years to do so.) But my wife's family is here and for now, here is where we stay. If Katrina had scattered wifey's kids, we would perhaps have chosen another place. But they didn't, and her mother is still here, too. So we will tough it out and hope that Katrina doesn't have a sister.

 

[Thales750]

Back to British Petro.

It's owned by, 39% American, and 41% British.

Look like were in this together folks.

 

[Vassago]

Back to British Petro.

It's owned by, 39% American, and 41% British.

Look like were in this together folks.

Really, the whole world should be involved with this one. The planet belongs to everyone and it will impact far more than just the US and UK in the long haul. International waters are international waters and I don't think the oil feels like it needs a green card to impact ocean lifeforms further than the Gulf.