Rational vs. irrational reporting

[Isaac]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ngton-dc-plane-crash-trumps-warped-priorities

1. the author refuses to make any connection between the concept of plane crashes and the quality of FAA hires, despite it being a matter of common sense (if not the cause of this crash - but extremely relevant & timely nonetheless).
2. the author fails to mention that the FAA actually HAS bragged about its openness to hiring air traffic controllers who have psychiatric disorders or major disabilities
3. the author then proceeds to do exactly what he refused to do in #1: Draw an unstable connection between his pet 2 things - slashing the gov vs. the plane crash.

I'll tell you one thing, this author's attempt to make me agree that it's somehow ludicrous to bring up the quality problem of air traffic controllers right after a plane crash involving air traffic controllers FAILED. Trump Derangement Syndrome, even when something makes sense, gaslight and pretend it doesn't.......to comply with the required liberal narrative about Trump.

Somehow Trump's reducing the size of govt MIGHT be related to this plane crash, but the FAA hiring people with psychiatric disorders couldn't possibly be related. TDS x 10!

I enjoy reading the Guardian for the same reason I always say Hi to my craziest neighbor! Keep 'em "close"....

 

[pbaldy]

Frankly I think Trump jumped the gun. I haven't paid close attention, but the reports I've heard said the air traffic controller advised the helicopter of the incoming jet, asked if they saw it, and told them to avoid it, apparently without response. The helicopter pilot had to know they were in the approach path to the airport. If I'm going to jump to a conclusion, it would not involve the controller.

 

[AccessBlaster]

There were two fixed wing aircraft in the vicinity, one in the foreground with two lights, one in the background. The Helo was asked if he sees the aircraft, I believe he answered in the affirm. Did the Helo pilot know there were two fixed wing aircraft?

 

[pbaldy]

Did the Helo pilot know there were two fixed wing aircraft?

If you're asking me, no clue. I haven't seen the video of the crash. Whether they did or not, I think it was premature to blame DEI and by extension the controller. If that's what the evidence points to later, okay. And not just that the controller was at fault, but that they were a DEI hire that wasn't really qualified for the job.

Don't get me wrong, I think scaling back/eliminating DEI is a good move. It's goes against MLK's admirable goal of a society that judges a man by his character rather than the color of his skin. I just think it was premature to call it the cause of the crash at this point in time.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Frankly I think Trump jumped the gun.

I agree the press conference was cringy, but it doesn't mean Trump is wrong about DEI

 

[The_Doc_Man]

A friend of mine, with whom I had dinner this evening along with his fiance' and my wife, offered some feedback. He is a long-time pilot with American Airlines and is familiar with the Reagan airport, claiming to have performed several normal landings there in the past few years. To prevent getting my friend in trouble, no names will be forthcoming.

• Normally there would have been two controllers on duty but only one was on duty at the time. The supervisor might have some blame here. This is especially not good because there was a lot of air traffic over Reagan Airport at that time.
• The controller did attempt to warn the chopper. He tried to get the chopper to move off the plane's flight path but the chopper's crew did not respond. If they replied, it was static and unintelligible. UPDATE: They responded but the plane and chopper were on different frequencies. There WERE conversations with the chopper pilot.
• The controller failed in that he did not order the plane to abort the landing and "go around" (for another landing attempt).
• The controller WAS in contact with the plane's flight crew before and during the last moments of the flight.
• The chopper was equipped with a TCAS (collision avoidance system) but apparently didn't have it switched on. The airplane had a TCAS, which would have given both pilots a warning of the collision course. The only way they wouldn't is if one was off or had failed. UPDATE: The TCAS is turned off when entering a landing profile because you would get alerts almost continuously from all other airplanes ahead or behind you in the approach path.
• The chopper pilots either weren't looking in the right direction or something else was wrong because as part of the pre-landing check-list, the airplane pilots would have turned on their landing lights, which are extremely bright.
• The investigation will lack some crucial data because the military choppers do not have flight data recorders or cockpit voice recorders.

My pilot friend offers the opinion that this one will result in little or no blame on the airplane pilots, some blame on the controller for failing to call for a "go around", and a lot of blame for chopper pilots for a chopper being where it should not have been and for not activating TCAS.

NOTE: EDITED by The_Doc_Man to supplement some issues.

 

[SachAccess]

First, I do not have any knowledge in aviation field.
One silly question, "The chopper was equipped with a TCAS (collision avoidance system) but apparently didn't have it switched on".
Why this is optional?

 

[Minty]

I agree the press conference was cringy, but it doesn't mean Trump is wrong about DEI

The DEI policy is a good one to get rid of. It's gone way too far trying to accommodate every minority and their dog. We have the same pandering culture gone mad in the UK.

But the press conference should have been about the crash, not deranged rambling politicised guesses as to the cause with zero evidence.

 

[jdraw]

I find this a factual source of info. He's a commercial pilot and an aviation enthusiast since childhood.

Here is a great insight into air traffic control by a former air traffic controller.

 

[Cotswold]

Over here we have seen a few news conferences on TV recently, with LA fires and now this saddening event.

One thing I don't quite understand is why when the person apparently in charge, or in a leadership position is surrounded by 15 to 20 staff.
All they appear to do is hover about without any perceivable reason for being there. Some in uniform, some not. It does appear sometimes that they may be better employed attending to the situation as they don't comment at these announcements.
But maybe I'm totally failing to understand their usefulness, or reason being present?

 

[Isaac]

Frankly I think Trump jumped the gun. I haven't paid close attention, but the reports I've heard said the air traffic controller advised the helicopter of the incoming jet, asked if they saw it, and told them to avoid it, apparently without response. The helicopter pilot had to know they were in the approach path to the airport. If I'm going to jump to a conclusion, it would not involve the controller.

I do think that concluding it was the controller's fault is jumping the gun

I'm just pointing out the general idea that bringing up the FAA's lowering hiring standards is pretty relevant to plane crashes, although you're right - it may or may not have caused THIS crash.

And I think bringing it up at a time when the publics mind is fresh from the crash makes perfect sense. Bring things up when there is an appetite to change, fresh on the public's mind.

My main point, however, wasn't this - it was that the article author first criticized the connecting of dots, then proceeded to do the exact same thing with THEIR pet issue

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Why this is optional?

jdraw's 1st link answers my own question about that. TCAS doesn't issue warnings when an aircraft is below a certain altitude, 500 feet, because in the "coming in for a landing" context there would be so many signals that TCAS alarms would become a major distraction. TCAS would be switched off by the plane's automation once in a landing profile, or the pilots would switch it off.

It is clear from jdraw's 1st link that the chopper pilot was at the wrong altitude. That will be a consideration when the NTSB analyzes the situation. My friend pointed out that the Reagan airport is a difficult airport because of the restricted airspace. For instance, one of the take-off and landing glide paths goes directly over the White House, which means that the pilots have some sharp turns to make in order to NOT go there.

One thing I don't quite understand is why when the person apparently in charge, or in a leadership position is surrounded by 15 to 20 staff.

The people standing around at press conferences are not all working for the person in charge. Some are fire chiefs from the different responder groups that mobilized to help. Others are ambulance service chiefs. In one of the press conferences, they introduced several fire chiefs from the counties surrounding that area. I heard at least five different counties named in that conference. Once the threat of fire is over and once they realize there is no one to rescue, they revert to a standard procedure of body recovery and wreckage recovery. That is (sadly) something they know how to do without the chiefs being there; the unit captains can handle that. But while they are there, they coordinate with the person in charge.

 

[Pat Hartman]

There were two fixed wing aircraft in the vicinity, one in the foreground with two lights, one in the background. The Helo was asked if he sees the aircraft, I believe he answered in the affirm. Did the Helo pilot know there were two fixed wing aircraft?

We'll never know why the helo pilot never saw the landing plane or why they were crossing the landing path but we do know that the controller asked an ambiguous question. He should have made a declarative statement. You are heading toward and very near to a landing plane! Descend/turn immediately! There were a number of planes in the airspace visible on the videos.

 

[AccessBlaster]

The DEI policy is a good one to get rid of. It's gone way to far trying to accommodate every minority and their dog. We have the same pandering culture gone mad in the UK.

But the press conference should have been about the crash, not deranged rambling politicised guesses as to the cause with zero evidence.

I agree 100%.

With Trump you get a mixed bag, some good and some cringy, we knew that going in. On average I feel he moves the ball forward and that's why he got my vote.

 

[Steve R.]

As already pointed out, Trump made a premature statement. He should have deferred answering by saying that the investigation into the crash needed to be completed first. Nevertheless, the reporter was disingenuously twisting the story to lay the seed that the elimination of DEI was inappropriate. However, we need to go back a few years. Recall that Biden’s FAA nominee bows out, after Republican senators pointed out that he knew nothing about aviation. As a consequence of this accident, reports have been emerging that the FAA could not hire qualified people for air traffic control because of DEI. As with the military, the quest for DEI objectives has led to staffing shortages as qualified people were not being hired due to skin color. As with many things, the foundations for this crash go back many years and the reporter is horrific in attempting to point a finger of blame at Trump.

By any normal standards, this would have been an extraordinary intervention. But this is a president who, in his first week in the White House, had already picked an inflammatory fight with the FAA over safety. Last week, in an executive order, he ordered it to end the diversity, equity and inclusion rules in its hiring policy. He also ordered the agency to review the performance and standards of all FAA employees in “critical safety positions”. Tasteless and inappropriate though it is, Mr Trump’s post signals his readiness – which he did nothing at all to dispel in Thursday’s press conference – to blame the FAA for the Potomac tragedy. (emphasis added)

 

[AccessBlaster]

Here's a clear view of the helicopter flying directly into the airplane.

Why was someone filming at precisely this moment, from almost a perfect angle, just far enough???pic.twitter.com/NpcXQnb8w6

— Martyupnorth®- Unacceptable Fact Checker (@Martyupnorth_2) January 31, 2025

 

[Isaac]

In a month nobody will hardly remember this crash, people will have moved on to the next big news story, which there are aplenty.
I think it makes perfect sense to bring up what needed to be brought up while it was still on-topic.

Every time there is a school shooting, everyone brings up gun control - immediately. And why not? It's never more relevant than then.

He brought up something highly relevant at the only time when it would really be paid attention to, makes sense to me despite that it was hard for some to hear. Has to be done anyway. Makes no difference as to whether it caused this specific crash - it's obviously relevant to the situation broadly speaking

 

[moke123]

FAA could not hire qualified people for air traffic control because of DEI.

The problem with hiring ATC's is it only pays $50k - 60K a year and forced retirement at 50 something. The burnout rate due to stress is very high.

 

[AccessBlaster]

There's been reports that the staffing levels were half the recommended level. DEI or not, there's not enough eyeballs one the screens.

 

[Steve R.]

The problem with hiring ATC's is it only pays $50k - 60K a year and forced retirement at 50 something. The burnout rate due to stress is very high.

Correct that the burnout rate is exceedingly high, but that ignores that it was the policy of the Biden administration to promote racist policies in the name of DEI. Biden, as one example, attempted to put a black person who knew nothing about the aviation industry in charge of the FAA. Biden's racist policies may have compromised the ability of the FAA to manage the airspace, leading to this accident.

This issue was raised one year ago, long before this accident occurred.