Rittenhouse - innocent or guilty?

I was fed up with the constant lies from left-wing media before, but this is getting ridiculous. I have just watched a news anchor on MSNBC who said Kyle shot 60 rounds!! It was 8 you idiot! They don't care about facts. They constantly lie because they are wrong, and so have to keep making things up else their audience will realise it was all propaganda.

Source:

I can't give the precise position for where he says it, because it is a live stream.
 
I think the term vigilante, however technically accurate it may or may not be, is a poor term to use in the circumstances. Vigilantism implies revenge and acting as a police officer. Yet there is zero evidence that Kyle acted in this way. When you have 4 people shot and the claim he is a vigilante, it misleads people into thinking he was out to get the rioters. But it was the opposite. He was administering first aid to them, and was running for his life after threats to kill him.
 
This whole mess derives from the simple fact that order is breaking down due to the extremes of polarization in our society.
Doc, we may disagree on some things in this thread, but I 100% agree with you on your statement above.
 
@Jon , not even a question, nor was there prior to trial. Not a hero nor a murderer. Most people who weren't sure before are pretty sure now. Only the tiniest contingent are still pretending at this point
I believe about 50% of the population are still pretending. Just look at the CNN, ABC and MSNBC coverage. I have 3 examples in this thread with sources showing they are still brainwashing their audience.
 
Last edited:
I believe about 50% of the population are still pretending. Just look at the CNN, ABC and MSNBC coverage. I have 3 examples in this thread with sources showing they are still brainwashing their audience.
Truly amazing.

What I would like to ask them is, if you think that Rittenhouse deserved to die with no legitimate right to defend himself with force in that moment, then are you comfortable applying that rule to every rioter who was there? Take absolutely any person in that crowd. Take one of Rittenhouse's victims if you will, or anyone else. They actually made the choice to leave their house, drive down to where this stuff was happening and essentially decided to be there and quite probably engage if they were in the majority. That means they also have no right whatsoever to defend themselves because they made a really stupid decision to go and be present in a volatile place we're no good was happening.

In fact, presumably, they would have even less of a right to self-defense then Kyle did, because their decision to join the rioters would be ostensibly even stupider and more wrong than Kyle's decision to join whatever the heck he considered himself to be.

Really, has anyone asked this yet? If Kyle has no right to self-defense because he made a stupid decision earlier that was totally unrelated to the moment in time in which someone was about to inflict bodily harm on him, why can't we apply that to every person there? They made an even dumber decision to go participate in a riot!

The problem with this argument is that it just goes round and round until you can see how it would apply to most any average person on any given day when they make dumb decisions and then later, face threats. The argument just doesn't work and won't work ever. At the end of the day, a person has a right to defend themselves even with great force against a threat they reasonably perceived to their life, and the only exception should be if they clearly and provably provoked the actual thing that was happening to them in that moment, in that same scene.

You can't just say I don't have the right to defend myself at 5:00 p.m., because I made a bad decision at noon. It just doesn't work like that, and I don't think any jury is going to agree that it does. Despite all the breathless rants of 'racism, racism' by the Joy Reids of the world.

Now for anyone who is going to say that's fine, I don't think the rioters do have any right to self-defense. That's not enough. The rule would have to also apply to anyone who showed up at that place, for any reason which was not actually illegal.
It would have to apply to the press, curious observers, an old grandma, and everyone else.

This whole trial can be disposed of with two sentences.
Kyle Rittenhouse did not provoke the immediate fight that threatened his life. Kyle Rittenhouse was not engaging in illegal activities.

The only possible exception to this would be if his violation of the firearm law was a felony. And that would be a bit of a stretch, since I highly doubt that every 17-year-old who illegally holds a firearm while hunting is charged with felony murder if someone dies in a hunting accident that they didn't cause...
The arguments for the side that wants Kyle guilty are just so tenuous and grasping at straws. God forbid they actually be applied to the general populace, tons of additional people would be guilty.

Now the Ahmaud Arbery case is totally different. @The_Doc_Man that case is the perfect example of vigilantism. Those men need to be incarcerated.

PS, further examination of the WI law reveals that prosecution for violating that law is going to be very, very unlikely.
 
Really, has anyone asked this yet? If Kyle has no right to self-defense because he made a stupid decision earlier that was totally unrelated to the moment in time in which someone was about to inflict bodily harm on him, why can't we apply that to every person there? They made an even dumber decision to go participate in a riot!
I believe it is irrelevant to the case from a legal perspective. The prosecution just wants to paint a bad picture of Kyle as an individual, because people can take a dislike to someone and this can skew their decision making. But regarding the law, it is about the moment in which he was attacked, with one other factor: did he provoke.

If the jury knew that Rosenbaum was a convicted paedophile and Huber held a knife to his brothers and grandmothers throat, then this too could skew the verdict. But ultimately, it is all irrelevant. The question is only this: did he reasonably suspect he was in imminent danger? Kyle can't factor into his decision to shoot based on the history of someone he knows nothing about. But I know where you are coming from.

The only possible exception to this would be if his violation of the firearm law was a felony. And that would be a bit of a stretch, since I highly doubt that every 17-year-old who illegally holds a firearm while hunting is charged with felony murder if someone dies in a hunting accident that they didn't cause...
The judge dropped Count 6, illegal possession of a firearm. I believe it was something to do with the barrel length or something?

The arguments for the side that wants Kyle guilty are just so tenuous and grasping at straws. God forbid they actually be applied to the general populace, tons of additional people would be guilty.
It is a proxy war between the Democrats and Republicans. As soon as the Left found Kyle was at a Trump rally, he was enemy number one. It is nothing about his innocence of guilty. Rather it is about vilifying Trump supporters, or any white males who are inherently racist despite no evidence.

The problem the left wing media seem to be forgetting is that trials set precedents. They will only end up harming themselves and their country by inflicting guilty verdicts on the innocent, thus baking it into law.

We keep hearing fake news talk about him "crossing state lines", as though that makes him more guilty. Well, he lives right next to the state line!

1636997125010.png


From the centre of his home town to the state line is about 1.5 miles.
 
Social media is completely suppressing anything that points to Kyle's innocence. They've taken down the GoFundMe page for his defense while leaving those for the violent Antifa and BLM offenders who had the misfortune to be charged by an honest prosecutor. The media is telling outright LIES regarding the events. They have all the cover they need for these lies because the truth is being diligently hidden.

How can any innocent person prove his case with the ENTIRE weight of social media against him?

How can we live in a world like this where violence is threatened if the outcome isn't to the mob's liking?
 
We keep hearing fake news talk about him "crossing state lines", as though that makes him more guilty. Well, he lives right next to the state line!
Funny you should say that (black humor). I gagged when I heard one pundit speculate that Rittenhouse "lost" his right to self-defense because he committed a crime when he crossed state lines. I find this "legal" avocation to be extremely troublesome considering that all the illegal immigrants entering the US are breaking the law, yet the Democrats contend, with a strait face, that that legal point is somehow irrelevant to the illegal immigrants receiving government welfare. Thomas Binger is a Democrat. Of course, he is probably not in a position to establish Democrat strategy. and as an individual may not agree with all Democratic party policies. Nevertheless, the point remains; it would be repugnant for Binger to segue into alluding to the fact that Rittenhouse somehow "lost" his right to self-defense because he committed a crime when he crossed state lines while his party takes the position that crossing political boundaries is not really a crime.

PS: I have not been watching the trial, so this issue may be moot.
 
Hypocrisy reigns.

The liberals are so wrapped up in their lies that they can't see any conflict in their positions. How can so many people be suffering from cognitive dissonance at one time? Can they be cured? What is the cure for cognitive dissonance?

I wonder if the hyper reaction to COVID is a result of all the conflicting positions liberals are expected to hold? Maybe, they've convinced themselves that COVID is something they can actually control if they only just try hard enough. They certainly can't resolve things like Kyle's supposed crossing of state lines with the illegal crossing of our country's border. Of course they aren't the same thing at all!!! State borders are very different from Country borders so we can hold different beliefs about any crime that might be committed by crossing one or the other. Get with the program stupid:)
 
Last edited:
I believe it is irrelevant to the case from a legal perspective. The prosecution just wants to paint a bad picture of Kyle as an individual, because people can take a dislike to someone and this can skew their decision making. But regarding the law, it is about the moment in which he was attacked, with one other factor: did he provoke.
The legal impact is that provocation - that is the theory that might nullify his "defense" of "self defense" - provocation is what's in question, mostly.
Apparently there doesn't seem to be a very well-outlined caselaw precedent for exactly how to define provocation, of the type that would nullify a defendant's self-defense defense, and therefore, the prosecutor is trying to make the case that his poor judgment in coming to the little riotfest IS that provocation, basically.

I always like to examine legal theories from the standpoint of how the rule would apply broadly, as courts often do - as in, "would applying this rule result in ridiculous outcomes, more broadly?" - and that's my point. If Kyle's mildly poor judgment can suffice as "provocation", then equally much could every rioter's present poor decision to attend a riot.

The question is only this: did he reasonably suspect he was in imminent danger? Kyle can't factor into his decision to shoot based on the history of someone he knows nothing about. But I know where you are coming from

Well, that's one out of two things. It's
1) Reasonably suspecting his life is in danger, AND
2) The absence of him provoking the scene that threatened him, and thus creating the threat.
What I addressed is mostly the 2nd piece, since there is fairly widespread agreement on the first.

Yes, that's good the firearm thing was dropped. Not only was the barrel not "short", as the statute required, but per the statute, Kyle would also have had to be in violation of a hunting statute too - in order for the first statute to be violated. Sort of a weird law.
 
Thank you, Isaac. I have stated here before that I'm on the razor's edge because, absent provocation, Kyle's actions would be identical with Louisiana's laws regarding premeditated murder. With the fact that BOTH sides brought a gun to unlawful event, all I can say is they are all equally guilty of "carrying a weapon while stupid."
 
Well, that's one out of two things.
Yes, I agree as I already stated in my post.

If you read my paragraph, my statement was in the context of knowing someones history:

The question is only this: did he reasonably suspect he was in imminent danger? Kyle can't factor into his decision to shoot based on the history of someone he knows nothing about.

Apparently, it seems that Kyle had a legal right to be there, had a legal right to have the gun with him, and had a legal right to be at the property to protect it, since he had a request for assistance. In addition, he had a legal right to be on the streets with the rioters.

the prosecutor is trying to make the case that his poor judgment in coming to the little riotfest IS that provocation, basically.
In the closing arguments, the prosecution is stating the cause of provocation was Kyle pointing the gun at "yellow pants", who is one of the individuals there. They claim this caused Rosenbaum to go berserk and chase after an armed man! I'm sorry, but what an idiot. If you want to get shot, chase someone with a gun.
 
Last edited:
Thank you, Isaac. I have stated here before that I'm on the razor's edge because, absent provocation, Kyle's actions would be identical with Louisiana's laws regarding premeditated murder. With the fact that BOTH sides brought a gun to unlawful event, all I can say is they are all equally guilty of "carrying a weapon while stupid."
Sorry Doc, have to disagree with you again. There are some significant differences. Rioting is unlawful. Kyle wasn't a rioter. Rosenbaum was.

they are all equally guilty of "carrying a weapon while stupid."
Kyle was smart to take his gun with him. If he hadn't, he would likely be dead now. Stupid is putting yourself in a dangerous area without protection. Consider this. Is it smart to take a gun to somewhere you have little need for it? What is the point in having the gun there? If you go to somewhere dangerous, a gun can protect you from others.

Now to the question of whether or not Kyle should have been there. Well, if someone decides to go into the military, is that stupid? They are at potential risk of being killed. What about firemen? Police? How about those who take up motor sport? Rock climbing? How about golf! Are they all stupid too? Why is Kyle stupid because he was at somewhere dangerous and anyone else who goes to a dangerous place not stupid? Whatever training someone gets, a soldier is still at risk of being killed. Same for police and firemen.
 
Last edited:
Kyle was smart to take his gun with him. If he hadn't, he would likely be dead now. Stupid is putting yourself in a dangerous area without protection.
Are you certain you're British?? You sound like an American conservative...keep it up and I'll send you a NRA application!
 
In the video below (@4 minute mark approximately), Tucker made the same observation that I had had. Tucker did go a step further in pointing out that members of the BLM/Antifa mob also probably crossed state lines to get to Kenosha, yet they are not being singled out as "bad" for that activity.
1637028371832.png
 
Well, if someone decides to go into the military, is that stupid? They are at potential risk of being killed. What about firemen? Police?

They get training appropriate to their new avocation/profession/career. Firefighters learn about types of fires, strategies for suppressing and controlling and extinguishing, and how to prioritize actions. They learn about special fuels that need special suppressants. (Before you ask, my dad was a firefighter.) Cops and soldiers learn how to use guns and (for the good ones) when and how to not use them. They learn about tactics and ways to protect themselves. Kyle apparently had none of that.

Kyle was smart to take his gun with him.

But not smart enough to not go in the first place.

had a legal right to be at the property to protect it, since he had a request for assistance.

I seem to have missed that. Several posts ago, NG suggested that the mayor made such a request. Is that confirmed? Because it is the ONLY fact you could put into evidence that would change my position. Without that invitation from authority, he had no reason to be in harm's way and no reason to be in the area. There is a joke told by Ron White about how, when he was arrested for drunken disorderly behavior, he had the RIGHT to remain silent, but not the ability to do so. Well, that is relevant here because having the RIGHT to travel freely doesn't always mean you should.

Seriously, if he was demonstrably requested by authority to be there to defend the property, then there should not have been a trial in the first place. He should have had at least a qualified immunity in this situation.
 
Are you certain you're British?? You sound like an American conservative...keep it up and I'll send you a NRA application!
Hah! Well, you don't go to war without a gun. Look at the UN. They are armed, yet they are a peacekeeping force.

There is another argument, I know. In the UK, there is a lot of knife crime in certain areas. Carrying a knife can lead to more lethal consequences than not carrying one. However, I do sympathise with some of the young people in very rough neighbourhoods who fear for their safety. If they know many others are armed, it becomes a bit of a vicious circle.

In the Rittenhouse case, the prosecution said in closing arguments you don't bring a gun to a fist fight. Well, Grosskreutz had a Glock in his hand. So does he expect Rittenhouse to bring his fists to a gun fight?
 
In the video below (@4 minute mark approximately), Tucker made the same observation that I had had. Tucker did go a step further in pointing out that members of the BLM/Antifa mob also probably crossed state lines to get to Kenosha, yet they are not being singled out as "bad" for that activity.
To me, the state lines thing is a moot point. Rittenhouse lives on the border, and so he is constantly crossing state lines. One argument some Conservatives are putting to the Left is, do illegal immigrants lose their right to self defence because they crossed the border? The Left wing podcasters were having trouble answering that one.

Besides Left verses Right issues, if I go to a foreign country, why should I lose any right to life? It just doesn't make any sense. There is no legal or moral justification for that whatsoever.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom