The Religion of Atheism (1 Viewer)

[Alc]

In his image. I see.

I think the image refered to, is the ability to create.

I've always viewed that bit as meaning image in the sense of what you can see.

There you go, our interprations differ - fancy a war?

 

[Alisa]

Well you guys seem to have grown weary of debating the semantics of what constitutes atheism verses agnostics.

So I thought I’d ask a question of my own.

Why do so many atheist so vehemently defend their religion? (for the sake of argument, I’ll broaden the definition here to include any who are not actively seeking to strengthen their connection to God)

I seem to observe more tendencies to ridicule from the faith of the atheist, than from others.

Maybe because the majority of religious folks fail to even acknowledge what atheism is on the most basic level. Just look at your own post, or anywhere else around this forum. There are multitude of posts from religous people painting atheism as a faith, a religion, as close mindedness, and so on and so on. Maybe if the religious folks could start out by acknowleding that atheism is the absence of belief in god, and even go one step farther and fathom the absurdity of "believing" in something that doesn't exist and never has, then you might understand my unwillingness to to indulge the delusional fantasies of an unfortunately large segment of the population.

You ask, why must atheists try to convince others of the folly of believing in god. And I would answer, because religion is the most destructive force in the world. You don't have to go back in history all the way to the crusades and whatever else. It is the most destructive force TODAY. Look at the suicide bombers and the terrorists. Their motivation is entirely religious. Look at the abuse that women in the middle east endure, up to and including death by stoning. The foundation of those abuses is entirely religious. I could go on, but everyone has probably stopped reading by now.

 

[Alc]

Alisa,
Have you read this?
http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807

I recently finished it and I can thoroughly recommend it.

 

[Alisa]

Alisa,
Have you read this?
http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807

I recently finished it and I can thoroughly recommend it.

I have heard it is great, but I have not read it yet.

 

[Rabbie]

Alisa,
Have you read this?
http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807

I recently finished it and I can thoroughly recommend it.

I can endorse that. IMHO a better book than Dawkins "God Delusion"

 

[Thales750]

I tend to think of the English language as adaptive and freely substitute words in a context not necessarily main stream.
The third definition in dictionary.com clearly states : “the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.”
That eliminates the necessity for any further attempts on ya’lls part to educate me on the definition of religion. Now your next argument might well be that that absence of belief is not the same as a belief.
Clearly the break in your logic is to claim that the universe just appeared and all the life from the simplest plasma life forms to complex animal like vertebrates simply came into being out of thin air, or you must believe (there’s that word again) that the unproven science of non creationist evolution either holds all of the truths or will soon find them (faith), in spite of no real evidence ever being produced that indicates that more complex life forms evolved from lesser ones.
So we have belief and faith, two of the main characteristics of religion, even the more commonly used narrower form.
We’ve established that atheism is indeed a religion.
So many people confuse religion with the existence of God, including many so called religious people. Religion is the dogmatic routine for worshiping in a controlled environment. End of Story.
Now atheists in particular are prone to confusing the acts of government and the acts of religion. Whenever government gets its power from religious orders, nothing but chaos and evil will prevail. History shows us this time and time again.
The obvious, if not premature conclusion is that fanatics on both side are extremely narrow minded and utilize dogma to further their beliefs onto other people.
Alisa take look at what you wrote:

and even go one step farther and fathom the absurdity of "believing" in something that doesn't exist and never has, then you might understand my unwillingness to to indulge the delusional fantasies of an unfortunately large segment of the population.

Delusional fantasies?
That is an attempt to minimize the act of believing, by undermining the worth of the believers.
Your language clearly indicates fundamentalist leanings, another standard religious practice.
So until atheists admit that they use this type of argument, I think you will need to be ready to receive your fair share of retaliation.
I’m not going to retaliate. In my journey I have found that only a few people are really ready to examine their walk with (or without) God. I’m already an unusual person, in that I have been sober for nearly 20 years.
This can only be achieved by the help of a higher power.
My quest has been to rigorously question the existence of God and the only rational conclusion is that God exist on a level so far above us, that we are incapable of fathoming even the faintest glimmer.
But that does not stop us from seeing his work.
Examining coincidence is the first step to discovery.
By the way Alisa you should have viewed my photos, some of them are actually passable.
Here’s the link for all to see:
There’s a hundred on this slide show so it may take a few minutes.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/30885456@N02/sets/72157609390807697/show/

 

[Mike375]

I would not call atheism a religion.

However, it shares in common with religion a basis of faith.

Atheists regulary say that it is based on a disbelief as opposed to a belief. But that is not correct. A disbelief has to have a belief as its opposite number.

The atheist does not believe the answers are to be found via a supernatural being or beings. The religious or spirtual person does not believe the answers are to be found via natural laws/physics.

The atheist believes the answers are to be found via natural laws/physics. The religious or spiritual person believes the answers are to be found via a supernatural being or beings.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

I've heard it said that Atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hair colour.

And I'd be inclined to agree that this is technically true, however, in practice, there are atheists who behave in many ways similarly to religious fundamentalists. For those people, Atheism is their religion, even though Atheism is not an organised religion all by itself.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

You ask, why must atheists try to convince others of the folly of believing in god. And I would answer, because religion is the most destructive force in the world. You don't have to go back in history all the way to the crusades and whatever else. It is the most destructive force TODAY. Look at the suicide bombers and the terrorists. Their motivation is entirely religious. Look at the abuse that women in the middle east endure, up to and including death by stoning. The foundation of those abuses is entirely religious. I could go on, but everyone has probably stopped reading by now.

Is it actually suicide bombers and terrorists that you're seeking to disabuse of their religion though?

Or do you find yourself generally debating creationists and other assorted fundamentalist Christians?

 

[Rabbie]

The religious or spirtual person does not believe the answers are to be found via natural laws/physics.

When/if you fly in an aeroplane do you want the plane to have been designed by a qualified engineer or a devout religionist.

How do you think religious people in general would vote on this one?

Similarly Would you want a qualified pilot to fly it or someone else who just believed they could?

 

[oumahexi]

In his image. I see.

I think the image refered to, is the ability to create.

Oh, I see, as in "computer imaging"?? What a pity they didn't have computers back in the year dot to compare to! Or maybe the gods did and weren't letting on, they just thought it a bit of a laugh to let us think of this man with a beard sitting on a throne somewhere in the sky when in actual fact they are the elements of the Earth itself!

 

[Pauldohert]

I trust in the pilot and the engineers and pray to God that my trust is well placed and that my time hasn't come.

Then I annoy my wife by forcing her to hold my sweaty hands for take off.

 

[Mike375]

When/if you fly in an aeroplane do you want the plane to have been designed by a qualified engineer or a devout religionist.

I would prefer the aeroplane designed by the engineer. But I would would have more preference for an aeroplane made by a superanatural.

Similarly Would you want a qualified pilot to fly it or someone else who just believed they could?

I would prefer a supernatural to fly it than a pilot.

 

[Mike375]

The reason atheists don't like atheism being referred to as a faith is because as a faith it becomes a contradiction.

Do any atheists know for 100% that there is no supernatural involved or was involved in the kick off. If you do know for sure then what scientific information do you have that Hawking and Co don't have? The answer of course is you don't have any such scientific facts. What you have is a faith that the Hawking and Co will get the answers.

If you reject the idea of faith (which you must as an atheist) the position of an atheist becomes a "I don't know....which brings you back to being an agnostic.

With the current state of science there can be no such thing as an atheist. It is simply a statement of preferred position but it is a position that does not exist.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

Lack of belief isn't a belief.

The notion that something is bad and should be stamped out, is a belief.

Atheists may or may not have important 'core' beliefs - and may or may not act upon those beliefs in a way that resembles the way some religious people act upon their beliefs.

 

[Rabbie]

The reason atheists don't like atheism being referred to as a faith is because as a faith it becomes a contradiction.

Do any atheists know for 100% that there is no supernatural involved or was involved in the kick off. If you do know for sure then what scientific information do you have that Hawking and Co don't have? The answer of course is you don't have any such scientific facts. What you have is a faith that the Hawking and Co will get the answers.

If you reject the idea of faith (which you must as an atheist) the position of an atheist becomes a "I don't know....which brings you back to being an agnostic.

With the current state of science there can be no such thing as an atheist. It is simply a statement of preferred position but it is a position that does not exist.

Mike, you may think of me as an agnostic - I think of myself as an atheist because that is what I feel I am. I do not believe I know all the answers (I may be arrogant but not that arrogant )

A label such as Atheist or Agnostic etc is just a label and is just part of a spectrum of belief ranging from one extreme to the other.

 

[Mike375]

Lack of belief isn't a belief.

The notion that something is bad and should be stamped out, is a belief.

Atheists may or may not have important 'core' beliefs - and may or may not act upon those beliefs in a way that resembles the way some religious people act upon their beliefs.

But belief and lack of belief both exist for either atheism or supernatural.

Atheism: Belief that natural laws are responsible. Lack of belief that super natural is reponsible.

Spiritual: Belief that super natural or super naturals are responsible. Lack of belief that natural laws are responsible.

 

[Rabbie]

Atheism: Belief that natural laws are responsible. Lack of belief that super natural is reponsible.

Not quite correct. Atheism is in fact the lack of belief in the supernatural. Why should any rational person believe something without any evidence that it is true.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

But belief and lack of belief both exist for either atheism or supernatural.

Atheism: Belief that natural laws are responsible. Lack of belief that super natural is reponsible.

Spiritual: Belief that super natural or super naturals are responsible. Lack of belief that natural laws are responsible.

Sure, but it's artificial to consider those to be mirror images of each other. Natural laws are observable - supernatural forces are not (by definition, or they would be natural, not supernatural).

So the two kinds of belief are not really the same class of phenomenon, despite it being possible to describe them in apparent equivalence, as you have done above.

 

[Mike375]

Mike, you may think of me as an agnostic - I think of myself as an atheist because that is what I feel I am. I do not believe I know all the answers (I may be arrogant but not that arrogant )

Agnostic with a leaning to the atheist end of the spectrum.