Trump VS Obama

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I'm 54 and I've hated politic all my life. I never listen nor watch politic news.
So from a political point of view, I don't know which one is better.

But for sure I know which one belongs to a higher class:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsBOWSjOLsE
 
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The reason we ended up where we are today, is because a higher class of people forgot about a lower class of people. That with identity politics sealed the 2016 election.
 
Speaking of politics (hope this is not hijacking). I heard the other day that if the democratics get their health plan, they would have to tax USA citizens at about 45% to pay for it.
 
Speaking of politics (hope this is not hijacking). I heard the other day that if the democratics get their health plan, they would have to tax USA citizens at about 45% to pay for it.

Geez, how much would National Health Care in the US cost!!!

Us Brits pay >20% Income Tax and about 8% Nataional Insuarnce Tax, so almost 30%, so we are not far off...
 
They might tax 45% for a while, but after the next round of elections they would have to roll that back. Unless assassinations cause Congress to get the message. Considering that right after Trump's election, a few politically motivated shooters tried to kill members of Congress and various governments, it would not be a big surprise that if the liberals get one of their candidates in the White House, a rampage would occur.

The conservative vs. liberal "divide" in the USA is, among other issues, about how much money belongs to the people who actually worked to earn an income vs. how much is taxed and then either spent or given away to those who DON'T work to earn a living. The latter sub-category was one of the drivers in the 2016 presidential election. Not the only one - but a real component of the national malaise that led to rejection of Hillary and the Democrats.
 
The reason we ended up where we are today, is because a higher class of people forgot about a lower class of people. That with identity politics sealed the 2016 election.
That I don't get at all. Clinton won the popular vote (AFAIK, she got about 2 million more votes than DT). So the lower class of people then is the electoral college? I just don't get a system where "representatives" of a section of voters can vote whichever way THEY like in spite of what the people they represent appear to want. That's dumbfounding.
 
That I don't get at all. Clinton won the popular vote (AFAIK, she got about 2 million more votes than DT). So the lower class of people then is the electoral college? I just don't get a system where "representatives" of a section of voters can vote whichever way THEY like in spite of what the people they represent appear to want. That's dumbfounding.

The popular vote is irrelevant.
The United States is not a direct democracy, in the sense of a country in which laws (and other government decisions) are made predominantly by majority vote. Some lawmaking is done this way, on the state and local levels, but it's only a tiny fraction of all lawmaking. But we are a representative democracy, which is a form of democracy.

The reason for the Electoral College.

The Electoral College was created for two reasons. The first purpose was to create a buffer between the population and the selection of a President. The second as part of the structure of the government that gave extra power to the smaller states. The first reason that the founders created the Electoral College is hard to understand today.

The Democrat's ignored rural America prior to the 2016 presidential race, and they paid a heavy price. Unless you are going to argue the Russians "changed votes", which has been thoroughly debunked.
 
I know that stuff. Doesn't mean I get it (or more accurately think it's smart for the times). Seems to me the founders had a chance to factor in proportional representation into their constitution but couldn't stomach the thought of having any resemblance to a parliamentary system. Instead they empowered a few who could ignore the wishes of the many. You nailed it by saying your vote means nothing when you get right down to it. Maybe that has more to do with voter apathy than anything else.
 
What can I say, love it or hate it we live within the frame work. I was just noting how we got here.
 
Seems to me the founders had a chance to factor in proportional representation into their constitution but couldn't stomach the thought of having any resemblance to a parliamentary system. Instead they empowered a few who could ignore the wishes of the many.
Most Western forms of government are Representative Democracy including the UK and the United States. In short elected officials representing a group of people.
 
Micron said:
That I don't get at all. Clinton won the popular vote (AFAIK, she got about 2 million more votes than DT).

I know we have a lot of folks on this forum who simply do not understand the US form of government. Forgive me for being the perpetual pedant, but it is worth explaining.

It is of absolutely no consequence that Hillary got a majority of the votes in total. What matters is WHERE she got the majority. Let's start with a simple statement: If Hillary had gotten a simple majority of votes in every state, she would be president. No question, nothing else to say about that particular "What If" scenario.

The truth is, Hillary DID NOT get a simple majority of votes in every state. Where she won a state, she won big. Where she lost a state, Donald won in varying degrees from moderate to huge wins. But that balance between federal and state power means that the individual states matter. The system is not evenly balanced. It is weighted to prevent the smaller states from always being squeezed out of the discussion.

The Electoral College is a part of the mechanism of checks and balances. In this case it acts as a check against "the tyranny of the majority." As an extreme example (and one that is unlikely to actually occur), whites outnumbered blacks after the Civil War. It would have theoretically been possible for white voters to reinstate slavery of blacks. That would be abhorrent, of course, but the point is that if you only went by simple majority, atrocities like that COULD occur in some aspect of federal laws. Anti-gay measures, for example.

We have to remember that at the time of the USA founders, "states' rights" was a HUGE issue that threatened to tear apart the as-yet incomplete union of states. It is no small coincidence that we are called "the United States of America." At the time of the founding of the USA, the states were independent and had separate sovereignty. The trick was to get them to give up some of their sovereignty to form a union with other states. Take a look at the power issues within the European Union now, which is another case of attempting to unify formerly sovereign states. When we talk about the Civil War, the northern side was called the "Union" army. The name was descriptive of their primary cause - to prevent dissolution of the union of states.

There was a really big debate in the Continental Congress in terms of balancing federal vs. state power in order to form that union originally. Because of the compromises, some fairly obscure methods were used to get enough states to vote in favor of the formation of that union. Remnants of that compromise are still in effect today and this is why some folks don't understand what happened in the presidential election of 2016.

A telling indicator of this attempt to balance things out is the structure of the House and Senate. The House of Representatives is based almost purely on population. A state with a larger population gets more representatives. The Senate is definitely immune to population differences but can be sensitive to regional or geographic issues. Therefore, to become law in the US, a bill must pass the House (meaning "popular appeal") and must also pass the Senate (meaning "regional appeal").
 
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The Democrat's ignored rural America prior to the 2016 presidential race, and they paid a heavy price. Unless you are going to argue the Russians "changed votes", which has been thoroughly debunked.
The Democrats have (falsely) contended that want to protect the integrity of the US electoral process. The Democrats have successfully birthed the narrative that opaque Russian interference has somehow influenced the US electoral process.

Lost in all the verbiage that has been tossed around is that the Democrats have been running (within the Democratic party) a very corrupt Presidential nomination process that violates the "integrity of the US electoral process". In the 2016 presidential cycle Bernie Sanders was elbowed out. Hillary Clinton was given questions ahead of time. The Democratic party claims to be Democratic, yet they have superdelegetes that can nullify the votes of regular delegates. Tulsi Gabbard for the 2020 presidential cycle believes that she is being elbowed out.

Furthermore, the Democrats want to "protect" illegal immigrants and have made numerous proposals to grant illegal immigrants the same rights as citizens. For example, Democrats do not want voter identification, which essentially creates an "open door" (opportunity) for illegal voting. Whether illegal voting was actually a problem or not is unknown to me, but the significant point is that it does diminish "integrity of the US electoral process" as the legal status of who is voting is suspect.

The Democrats with lots of fanfare may hysterically scream "RUSSIA", but it is the Democrats, who in the background, are the threat to the "integrity of the US electoral process".

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PS: The so-called Russian interference occurred at the time the Obama administration was in charge. At the time Trump was a private citizen. So the responsibility to prevent Russian interference belonged to the Obama administration. Also need to ask the question whether any of the so-called Russian interference was actually aimed at helping the Hillary Clinton campaign.
 
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If anyone wants to see a quid pro quo look here first.

In 2012, President Obama was overheard over a hot microphone telling President Dmitri Medvedev of Russia he would have "more flexibility" to negotiate with Putin after the election.

I won't bother putting a link to this because the entrenched are busy dismissing it as we speak.
 
Tera,

I honestly believe that Trump and Obama are quite the same because of the nature of how they attained the office. I believe that the primary reason Obama was elected was cuz the public (especially the black community) was obsessed with achieving the milestone of having a black man as president. The same thing I believe happened with Trump, whereby the public was again obsessed with getting a businessman in office, cuz they believed it would help things along more than a politician would. Both of these presidents achieved milestones, and I'm sure it won't be long before we'll become obsessed with getting a woman in office just to see how she does as the leader. Maybe the women over here could take a lesson from Margarate Thatcher.
 
Bingo! Every group feels disenfranchised. Identity politics rule the day.
 
My choice would be Tulsi Gabbard, if I was strictly basing my decision on gender / identity.

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As you know the Clinton machine has already targeted her as a Russian asset, so her and The Bern will be thoroughly discredited.
It will be Liz and the Ex VP, I presume.
 
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never heard of her. a lot of people that post here are apparently from the UK. Is that you as well?
 

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