Shootings in US schools

We've been hearing about yet more killings in US schools last week and this week.

In this weeks American school killings episode, the killings are in an Amish community.ref (I'd never heard of it before)

Apparently they don't like modern things and do everything to avoid it, they live this weird 18th century existence. They worship some kind of god, so presumably are some kind of crank religious cult.

No doubt they become very voiciferous about "outside" interference, they preach about "isolation from the modern world" - so how come they use modern hospitals, use modern fire engines, modern police etc? it seems a case of "we don't want anything to do with you, till we need you" type of scenario. I would have thought they can't have it both ways, its either one thing or the other. I'll bet they don't pay taxes or any national contributions.

Col

ColinEssex said:

We've been hearing about yet more killings in US schools last week and this week.

In this weeks American school killings episode, the killings are in an Amish community.ref (I'd never heard of it before)

Apparently they don't like modern things and do everything to avoid it, they live this weird 18th century existence. They worship some kind of god, so presumably are some kind of crank religious cult.

No doubt they become very voiciferous about "outside" interference, they preach about "isolation from the modern world" - so how come they use modern hospitals, use modern fire engines, modern police etc? it seems a case of "we don't want anything to do with you, till we need you" type of scenario. I would have thought they can't have it both ways, its either one thing or the other. I'll bet they don't pay taxes or any national contributions.

Col

Click to expand...

Have you not seen the film "Witness" with Harrison Ford??

I do not see a problem if a group what to live a simple life, they do not force their views on others, they just try and limit the influence of modern life on them.

What do you want to happen force them all to have large SUVs and TVs..

There was something similar in M.Night Shylaman's file 'The Village', although I don't think they were Amish, but the society portraid was based around a similar desire to retain high morality through a basic existence.

No doubt they become very voiciferous about "outside" interference, they preach about "isolation from the modern world" - so how come they use modern hospitals, use modern fire engines, modern police etc? it seems a case of "we don't want anything to do with you, till we need you" type of scenario. I would have thought they can't have it both ways, its either one thing or the other. I'll bet they don't pay taxes or any national contributions.

Click to expand...

Just as trends and cultures in this day and age penetrate international borders on the barest of whims, I would imagine it is near impossible to keep the outside world from expressing a presence in their own culture.

Imagine for example they chose to build an Amish hospital..? Chances are the beauracrats and officals would make it their business to invade their privacy and close it down on the grounds of 21st century health and safety regulations.

Still, you can't blame them for trying to maintain a sense of order and belief in a world where public morality changes between each and every advertisement break. Many is the time I've longed just to go live in the woods away from all this bull...

msp said:

Have you not seen the film "Witness" with Harrison Ford??

Click to expand...

no I don't know that one.

I do not see a problem if a group what to live a simple life, they do not force their views on others, they just try and limit the influence of modern life on them.

Click to expand...

I agree, people can live how they like - as long as they pay their way and don't expect the rest of us to pick up the bill like our travellers and gypo's do. But it appears that they (Amish) preach about avoiding modern things - except when they need it? - double standards maybe?

Just a discussion point

anyway, I see old cross eyes is today having urgent talks to try to stem the flow of dead school pupils. Odd that he cares nothing for the premature dead elsewhere

Col

ColinEssex said:

...Apparently they don't like modern things and do everything to avoid it, they live this weird 18th century existence. They worship some kind of god, so presumably are some kind of crank religious cult.

No doubt they become very voiciferous about "outside" interference, they preach about "isolation from the modern world" - so how come they use modern hospitals, use modern fire engines, modern police etc? it seems a case of "we don't want anything to do with you, till we need you" type of scenario. I would have thought they can't have it both ways, its either one thing or the other. I'll bet they don't pay taxes or any national contributions.

Col

Click to expand...

I think you're being a bit over dramatic and judgemental. They seem to be very nice people to me.

(And it appears to be yet another of your brain-dead lead-ins to another W bash... ho-hum...time for morning coffee )

ColinEssex said:

no I don't know that one.


I agree, people can live how they like - as long as they pay their way and don't expect the rest of us to pick up the bill like our travellers and gypo's do. But it appears that they (Amish) preach about avoiding modern things - except when they need it? - double standards maybe?

Just a discussion point

anyway, I see old cross eyes is today having urgent talks to try to stem the flow of dead school pupils. Odd that he cares nothing for the premature dead elsewhere

Col

Click to expand...

I presume they still have to pay tax. (although I do not imagine they have a massive income), as for hospitals I guess they do not have health insurance so that limits their choice. I understand they are basically self suffecient as a community and help each other. (unlike travellers do not claim off the state and own their own land. They have always struck me as a nice community and have been around for 250 odd years since they where
forced to leave Europe.

The Amish are an offshoot of the Mennonites (you may have heard of them).

They remain apart from mainstream American society. They are still required to pay taxes and as a result they have access to hospitals, police fire etc. (after all, they paid for them right).

KenHigg said:

I think you're being a bit over dramatic and judgemental. They seem to be very nice people to me.

Click to expand...

I'm sure they are. Most religious cult people (like christians) are, apart from being hypocritical of "outsiders" that is

(And it appears to be yet another of your brain-dead lead-ins to another W bash... ho-hum...time for morning coffee )

Click to expand...

I would have thought that 2 separate schools shootings within a week, with several children dead, may have raised your concern a little.
But to hear on the news today that GWB is "concerned" is quite frankly a joke - if he really was concerned, he would reform your gun laws, but that would lose too many votes and money.

Col

ColinEssex said:

... Most religious cult people (like christians) are, apart from being hypocritical of "outsiders" that is

Click to expand...

+

ColinEssex said:

...they live this weird 18th century existence.

Click to expand...

= Typical Col

ColinEssex said:

...But to hear on the news today that GWB is "concerned" is quite frankly a joke - if he really was concerned, he would reform your gun laws, but that would lose too many votes and money.

Col

Click to expand...

Thanks for proving me right again.

Zzz....

ColinEssex said:

if he really was concerned, he would reform your gun laws, but that would lose too many votes and money.

Col

Click to expand...

He's not allowed to reform them, some old scrap of paper say that they have the right to shoot each other

You've lost me there Ken.

You've not been playing golf with Gloria have you?

Col

ColinEssex said:

You've lost me there Ken.

Col

Click to expand...

That doesn't suprise me.

Actually, I thought this was an good topic to discuss. Shame your typical blanket hate stuff causes most of us on this side of the pond to not have any interest in chatting about it with you...

KenHigg said:

That doesn't suprise me.

Actually, I thought this was an good topic to discuss. Shame your typical blanket hate stuff causes most of us on this side of the pond to not have any interest in chatting about it with you...

Click to expand...

I've not mentioned the word hate. Yet again its your misinterpretation.

I said that most religious people are ok apart from being hypocritical and I said that GWB saying he was going to "do something" about kids being shot in school was a joke.

Also, I questioned about the Amish preaching about "avoiding modern things" - but it seems they can't really do without them. If they pay their way then they are entitled, but then why bother to live in the 18th century? it all seems a bit weird to me.

Get out of the bed on the wrong side today Kenny babe? (again)

Col

Guns and Religion aside (as I have little time for either), what about shifting the emphasis of this thread toward the Amish lifestyle sans all the doctrine and getting some general feelings?

Premise - If you could cross-out the religious bits (for the non-religious... and possibly the beards too..!) would the idea of living an Amish-esque lifestyle appeal to you? Consider - even if it was just for say, a month or two.





My head is ringing with Wierd Al Yankovich's "Amish Paradise", everytime I think about the Amish

An Amish lyfestyle with Kelly McGillis would appeal a lot.

ColinEssex said:

Also, I questioned about the Amish preaching about "avoiding modern things" - but it seems they can't really do without them. If they pay their way then they are entitled, but then why bother to live in the 18th century? it all seems a bit weird to me.

Get out of the bed on the wrong side today Kenny babe? (again)
Col

Click to expand...

I am not really sure the Armish use much modern stuff, as said previously there are some groups who do not have electricity. Yes they do use police resources etc but they are hardly a deain on society. The would cult is a little strong as they do not force their views on others and members are free to leave the group (although I guess there is family pressure).

The debate as to why there has been a recent surge in school shooting is interesting, and remember we in the UK are not immune to these dispite our much stricter gun laws. In the last 20 years I can think of at least two examples...

There's a Your Say section on the BBC site about US (lack of) gun control. You have a lot of frickin' idiots over there who banter on about how owning a gun is a freedom under the Second Amendment.

Of course, with a proper crime fighting force, there's little need for Americans to be making a posse, vigilante squad, or "militia" any more and so such actions are surely unlawful. So, given that you no longer need guns, why not just amend the constitution again?

It can't be amended again, because the right to bear arms is considered sacred amongst Americans. Why? You don't need guns. It's a hangover from pioneer days. Your media (at least, what I've seen) raves about terrorism threats as if there is actually much need for concern, when the biggest threat to the safety of American citizens is their antiquated constitution, as cases such as the three this week, Columbine, Washington sniper, etc. are proving.

There are those who say that if the guy had been disallowed guns then he would have still managed to obtain them, whether it be from the black market, family, or theft. But, by having proper controls in place, nutjobs like him are restricted in the avenues they can approach in order to obtain such weapons.

Notions such as borrowing from family are negated by making gun ownership illegal, since the family wouldn't have any guns to lend. Stealing, with no guns around, would have him having to thieve from the police, the military, or gangsters. I doubt many would fancy this proposition.

Regarding the black market, I don't buy that people could easily find themselves guns there. Prices, no doubt, would rise since they wouldn't be so easily available. To get such things on a black market, you would no doubt need connections to find them. Places aren't exactly going to have 'Smith & Son, Black Marketeers' above their shop.

And some of the weapons you guys have on sale too, what purpose do they serve in the public's hands? If you must have some sort of weapons then what's wrong with tranquilisers and stun guns? Do you need automatic machine guns, etc. ?

The guy had a lot of weaponry. Since I'm not au fait with the procedures to procure a gun, can someone give answers to the following questions:

• What psychological checks are there in place for one seeking to obtain a gun?
• What's the turnaround in application to receipt?
• Do you have to give reasons why you need one?
• Is there a set period where re-assessment of either the weapon or the person is necessary?
• Are gun ownership records federal knowledge, or is governed on a state by state basis?
• What's the legal age for gun ownership? Does it differ by state?
• Is there a maximum amount of weaponry that one can own?
• How much do bullets cost?

While one's psychological problems are an obvious factor in making someone decide to perform such an atrocity, you can't help feel that the constant macho image pushed by American media (Hollywood, magazines, gangster rap, etc.) is certainly something that needs remedied. It's one root that leads to low self-esteem amongst such people.

Nice one Mile-O

Col

I thought SJ was going to do pretty good until he lowered the post to Col's level right at the start with the 'frickin' idiots' thing. And that pretty much revealed the hate tone for the remainder of the post and it lost my interest...

'frickin' - Odd word coming from a guy of SJ's caliber.

KenHigg said:

'frickin' - Odd word coming from a guy of SJ's caliber.

Click to expand...

I'm beginning to wonder if they are not jealouse of us having guns, since they can't any more. After all, even if they say, saw those London bombers before they blew up, what would they do? Nothing I guess, where here since "pretty much according to Rich/Col" every man, woman and child is armed, we could blow them away before they had a chance to explode them.
Yep, green with envy I am begining to think.