Shootings in US schools

[Matty]

Maybe not schools, but it's not like Canada is immune to gun crimes.

 

[Rich]

but it's not like Canada is immune to gun crimes.

Sadly neither is the UK, however we do attempt to control it instead of hiding behind some outdated scrap of nonsense

 

[Mile-O]

Hmmm... well to be fair SJ wasn't explicit as to whether he meant everyone who fervently suports the Second Ammendment is an idiot or rather that there simlpy are a lot of idiots who do.

Sorry, I thought by saying 'a lot of' rather than 'all' was explicit enough. So no, I did not mean all Americans who support the Second Amendment were idiots. But there seem to be those who see it as 'i gots me a gun an' i ain't givin' it away, no way, sir'. I thought 'frickin' was a great phrase to use.

Matty, the UK isn't exempt from gun crimes either. We have our fair share, although such acts are usually the domain of gang warfare, whether it be small urban gangs or citywide organised crime factions. Loners and violent fantasists don't tend to factor, especially since the case of Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane which caused our gun restrictions (relevent mostly to gun clubs) to come even further under scrutiny and subsequent restriction.

From Wikipedia: Only one third of Canadian murders involve firearms compared to two thirds in the States. What's Canada doing differently?

 

[jsanders]

Sadly neither is the UK, however we do attempt to control it instead of hiding behind some outdated scrap of nonsense

A scrap of nonsense; that is arguably the most important and substantial document in the world.

 

[Rich]

A scrap of nonsense; that is arguably the most important and substantial document in the world.

Well I hate to spoil your day but we have something called the Magna Carta, it's about 500 yrs older than your scrap

 

[Matty]

Matty, the UK isn't exempt from gun crimes either. We have our fair share, although such acts are usually the domain of gang warfare, whether it be small urban gangs or citywide organised crime factions. Loners and violent fantasists don't tend to factor, especially since the case of Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane which caused our gun restrictions (relevent mostly to gun clubs) to come even further under scrutiny and subsequent restriction.

From Wikipedia: Only one third of Canadian murders involve firearms compared to two thirds in the States. What's Canada doing differently?

Yeah, I know the UK has it's own fair share of come crimes as well. I'm just explaining to Rich that Canada's not some magic world of non-violence, where people just spend all their time making snow angels.

I'm not sure what Canada's doing differently. The feds are trying to get everyone to register their firearms, but that's a bit of a mess. Many people just refuse to register their firearms because they feel the registry is a waste of money and the feds probably won't come after them anyway to fine/jail them. The registry seems like a good first step, but all they'll know is who has the LEGAL guns -- most gun crimes in Canada are performed with stolen/smuggled firearms.

I don't think there is a definitive answer, but there sure are a heck of a lot of theories...

 

[jsanders]

Well I hate to spoil your day but we have something called the Magna Carta, it's about 500 yrs older than your scrap

Ah, the Magna Carta, isn’t that the Latin document extolling the virtues of the Church and God.

Certainly I see why an atheist would assert that it was of more value then the US Constitution.

If you are trying to make a point, you would be well served to moderate your ravings. As I have told you on many occasions. Your Chicken Little routine makes you look ridicules.

And, if for no other reason, the US Constitution is the more important, simply because the US itself has had more influence in the last 150 years or so.

Not bad, I might add, after all we were formed from the dregs of your society.

 

[Kraj]

We have our fair share, although such acts are usually the domain of gang warfare, whether it be small urban gangs or citywide organised crime factions. Loners and violent fantasists don't tend to factor,

I'd say loners and fanatacists are probably a bigger problem here, but just like in the UK the vast majority of gun crime in the U.S. is between gang members. So perhaps the disparity in gun voilence between our countries has less to do with the access to guns and more to do with how prevalent the gang presence is.

 

[Rich]

And, if for no other reason, the US Constitution is the more important, simply because the US itself has had more influence in the last 150 years or so.

.

You flatter yourself yet again, you've only had any influence since the end of WW11, and since Bush fu*#ed up, you've none left at all, and nobody including you has answered my question regarding the civil liberties of children, your constitution obviously doesn't protect them.

 

[jsanders]

You flatter yourself yet again, you've only had any influence since the end of WW11, .

Oh?

I think that the handwriting was on the wall, so to speak, when the HMS Java was taken by the USS Constitution.

Paving the way for American, naval, industrial, and economic, superiority.

The youth ascends to dominance over the old.

It’s an ancient story, but one who’s telling is still as poignant as ever, especially to the old.

 

[Adeptus]

In this weeks American school killings episode, the killings are in an Amish community.ref (I'd never heard of it before)

Apparently they don't like modern things and do everything to avoid it, they live this weird 18th century existence. They worship some kind of god, so presumably are some kind of crank religious cult.

"They worship some kind of god" - yes, I believe it's the Christian flavour.

I'm surprised you haven't heard of them before... Weird Al's "Amish Paradise", that movie with Tim Allen, other pop culture references...

I saw (bits of) a fascinating documentary about them a while back - apparently when they are teenagers, they are allowed out "into the world" and basically run amok for a while (months? a year?) before deciding whether they want to become adult members of the Amish community, or want to stay in the modern world.
And when I say run amok, I mean full modern teen binge... sex, drugs, alcohol, you name it.

 

[Ksan]

Personally I find the American right to bear arms business, frankly, scary on a few levels. It is so ingrained into American society that there is no easy resolution to a problem that is as bad as it is; any situation would both be improved and worsened in different aspects by removing such a right.

As a human right, the right to bear arms is probably one of the hardest to justify in modern societies - the right to own a car for example is far, far more justifiable and legitimate to put it in some perspective.

The first major argument is - they have guns, so I need one to defend myself; which in the instance of the US is a fairly difficult one to dispute - guns are everywhere. Despite the gravity of taking another's life if it came down to me or mine versus the other folk, I'd settle up with my consience afterwards...

Secondly, you can always get guns no matter what, even in the UK the blackmarket exists. So if such means exist, why bother at all? A register of legal firearms doesn't stop a bullet from an illegal firearm.

Thirdly, it could be guns or another right - people don't like surrendering them as a matter of principle and in the current global (it's not just the US) climate with civil liberties being eroded wholesale people would rise up against the notion purely to stem the tide.

The list could go on... easily! I'm not even American and even I can see the depth of the issue. It cannot be solved, it's part of the cultural identity and so no one would put their political life on the line by pushing too far to solve it.

Coming from a country where if I walked door-to-door around my entire city (assuming everyone told the truth...) I would probably struggle to find a single firearm above an air-rifle, I do balk a bit when I come across people on the forums boards of online games digressing into what firearms they own, how many clips they have etc like its some big badge of honour or something! Thats pretty unnerving, people just talking about it like it was a car they owned or summat - mines got this and that and goes so fast! So even as a foreigner speaking outside of the problem, I would advocate in the face of a virually unsolvable problem that at the very least, a lot needs to be done to change the perception of firearm ownership in the US.

One day, I'm sure, a politician will really stick their neck out and try to fix the unfixable - chances are though, given the irony of life in general, they'll get shot for their trouble!

 

[Rich]

I do balk a bit when I come across people on the forums boards of online games digressing into what firearms they own, how many clips they have etc like its some big badge of honour or something!

We have them here too, bragging about the size of their equipment and arsenals, I guess they think it makes them tough.

 

[ColinEssex]

"They worship some kind of god" - yes, I believe it's the Christian flavour.

Yes, I think that is the cult they belong to

I'm surprised you haven't heard of them before...

there are so many weird and wacko sects and cults in the USA its hard to keep track.

Mile-O, your post was excellent, it doesn't surprise me that the Yanks picked up on the "frickin" bit (which was not misleading at all) and you'll notice totally ignored all your questions. They are expert at avoiding searching questions. I've worked out its paranoia setting in because they think there is an ulterior motive.
They moan about us not knowing stuff about the US but don't answer questions when we try to find out.

Col

 

[ColinEssex]

Why are you using the murder of children to attack a benign culture?

I raised the murder of children issue, because its happened twice in the USA within a week. (and loads of times previously) plus, I questioned if the benign culture was shunning modern things until they needed them, thus raising the double standard question. In my book, they either shun modern things or they don't, you can't have it both ways when it suits.

Are you that desperate for attention?

so raising a topic about children being killed is attention seeking? how odd

Col

 

[Mile-O]

Mile-O, your post was excellent, it doesn't surprise me that the Yanks picked up on the "frickin" bit (which was not misleading at all) and you'll notice totally ignored all your questions.

Thanks, Col.

I asked the same questions on the other forum I moderate: Book & Reader. Here's the responses I got; and they are quite worrying:

What psychological checks are there in place for one seeking to obtain a gun?

None.

What's the turnaround in application to receipt?

1 hour to 2 to 3 days, depending on where purchased. Also criminal record comes into play here. Certain crimes, i.e. domestic violence = no legal gun ownership rights.

Do you have to give reasons why you need one?

No.

Is there a set period where re-assessment of either the weapon or the person is necessary?

No.

Are gun ownership records federal knowledge, or is governed on a state by state basis?

I believe by the State.

What's the legal age for gun ownership?

Over 18 or parents' consent.

Is there a maximum amount of weaponry that one can own?

No.

How much do bullets cost?

Depends, for example 9mm = $13.00+ for fifty.


Quite why someone would need a gun and have their parents' consent to obtain one, I don't understand. Unless, of course, fashion has truly moved beyond clothes and "bling" and the trendy thing to be seen with is a gun.

The fact that gun ownership would appear to be handled on a state by state basis, rather than a federal one, only makes it more difficult to track gun ownershio. In Virginia, Quantico was set up to track crimes across the states: would it not be more sensible, at least, to track gun ownership at the same level. The lonely psycho could cross state borders...

I realise I do speak as an outsider, as someone with little experience around a society where packing weaponry is as normal as breakfast. But, I don't think you need immersed in such a culture to be allowed to be critical of it.

 

[ColinEssex]

You're right Mile-O, those answers are disturbing but not unexpected.

Also, the US TV and Hollywood always glamourise the gun, I get the impression it's the "must have" accessory in the US.

Its easier to kill someone with a gun than a Rolex

Col

 

[Brianwarnock]

A good post Ksan but if I can mention point 2

Secondly, you can always get guns no matter what, even in the UK the blackmarket exists. So if such means exist, why bother at all? A register of legal firearms doesn't stop a bullet from an illegal firearm.

The idea is to make it difficult, it can never be impossible, sure there are places and people in Liverpool where I can get a gun, but I don't know them and would be afraid of getting more than ripped off if I enquired.

Brian

 

[KenHigg]

... I'm not even American and even I can see the depth of the issue. It cannot be solved, it's part of the cultural identity and so no one would put their political life on the line by pushing too far to solve it.

Well put and I think I can see where you are coming from on most of the arguments you've made. May I point out that gun ownership spans numerous groups from hunters and sportsmen to casual gun owners to the other end of the spectrum like the owners of illegal guns like assault guns etc. In order to come up with changes in gun laws I feel like you need to consider them separately.

What do you think?

And thanks for not felling like you have to use phrases like 'frickin idiots' to make your points. Somehow it makes your comments on the subject sound much more intelligent and well thought out.

 

[Mile-O]

May I point out that gun ownership spans numerous groups from hunters and sportsmen to casual gun owners to the other end of the spectrum like the owners of illegal guns like assault guns etc. In order to come up with changes in gun laws I feel like you need to consider them separately.

What do you think?

Oh, certainly. They do need considered separately.

Police
Military
Sportsmen
Gangs
Farmers
Hunters

Who else really needs guns?

As for hunters, however, I would expect them to hand their rifles into some sort of designated safehouse (forest rangers?) when finished their week away, rather than take them home.