Are Muslims and the Quran a threat to our society?

I think that both of these things are equally ignorant:

  • Thinking that all 2BILLION Muslims are the same
  • Thinking that every religion "has mostly good people, with a few crazies on the fringe".
The latter is no more enlightened, more educated, or smarter than the first. In fact, it's perhaps more ignorant.

Some religions are more of a threat than others by literal definition of doctrine, lumping them all together in this wish-it-were-so statement that "most people are good but some will always be fringe" is overlooking the actual differences between religions.
 
the reason I stay away from these types of discussians ... we can share about Access, automation, bounce ideas, ... but the moment we challenge another's religious beliefs, the beneficial relationship can change. I don't want that to happen.

@Isaac, even though we are discussing ideas, I took offense at "ignorant" ~ at first, but then I realized how you could look at it that way, it's more personal for you. I'm sympathetic to the long-time wars, and care about not just humanity, but also the rest of the planet ... plants, animals, creatures, rocks, earth, skies .... and beyond

I don't know much about Judaism except my understanding is that some/all? of) the Christian Old Testaments are in the Torah. The bible continues with a New Testament (after birth) but I don't know the differences ... although I would like to.

There was a "Comparitive Religions" course in my high school but I didn't take it ... hearing comments from others down the road made me wish I would have.

~~~
IMO, every man is free to believe whatever they want. Most have some perception of God (supreme being) regadless of the book they read ... even those who are 'agnostic' but scientific ... for science explains a lot but still cannot explain WHY ... that is the whole of everything, so they do still believe, in their own way.

Just as we have cells in our body, we are each cells in this universe and all that we can percive.

Imagine yourself on another planet -- any other human, no matter what color or shape, would be comforting to see.

There is something to be said for being a minority in a pool of others. As an American overseas, I experienced that, and it was a bonding agent. If If another traveler, American or not, just who spoke in a language I could understand

Even though experiencing new things is exciting, sometimes you just long to just be in a comfortable place. One time I was sitting in a European train station, with lots of thoughts on my mind. Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the U.S.A." came on the video and lifted my spirits.

~~~

> literal definition of doctrine

doctrination is not just religion. Aside from that and politics, we are also influenced by family, friends, groups, peer pressure, ...

> differences between religions

lumping by religion isn't accurate ...

no one is 'the same' as someone else. It's not about religion, it's about HUMANS.

Everyone is born with gifts. Regardless of religion, we are all made the same way.

Children love everyone and all colors are beautiful. Then we 'learn' -- or do we? We all have free will to make decisions.

~~~
I shared this thread with a friend who isn't a member of this forum. He gave permission to quote him, so I will

"Hate & fear are well known (See Josef Goebbels on this.) tools to ensure that populaces can easily be manipulated."
~ Adrian Bell

~~~
btw, Tony, @Uncle Gizmo and Richard @The_Doc_Man, I did eventually watch the videos and appreciate the perspectives. However, the thread title is diversive
 
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A great quote. One should also beware of political leaders who insult others and spread hatred and division.
 
strive4peace said:
the reason I stay away from these types of discussians ... we can share about Access, automation, bounce ideas, ... but the moment we challenge another's religious beliefs, the beneficial relationship can change. I don't want that to happen.

@Isaac, even though we are discussing ideas, I took offense at "ignorant" ~ at first, but then I realized how you could look at it that way, it's more personal for you. I'm sympathetic to the long-time wars, and care about not just humanity, but also the rest of the planet and beyond ... plants, animals, creatures, rocks, earth ....

I don't know much about Judaism except my understanding is that some/all? of) the Christian Old Testaments are in the Torah. The bible continues with a New Testament (after birth) but I don't know the differences ... although I would like to.

There was a "Comparitive Religions" course in my high school but I didn't take it ... hearing comments from others down the road made me wish I would have.

~~~
IMO, every man is free to believe whatever they want. Most have some perception of God (supreme being) regadless of the book they read ... even those who are 'agnostic' but scientific ... for science explains a lot but still cannot explain WHY ... that is the whole of everything, so they do still believe, in their own way.

Just as we have cells in our body, we are each cells in this universe and all that we can percive.

Imagine yourself on another planet -- any other human, no matter what color or shape, would be comforting to see.

There is something to be said for being a minority in a pool of others. As an American overseas, I experienced that, and it was a bonding agent. I sometimes could spot another American and felt somwhat comfortable to approach them, guessing we had a common bond.

Even though experiencing new things is exciting, sometimes you just long to just be in a comfortable place. One time I was sitting in a European train station, with lots of thoughts on my mind. Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the U.S.A." came on the video and lifted my spirits.

~~~

> literal definition of doctrine

doctrination is not just religion. Aside from politics, we are also influenced by family, friends, groups, peer pressure, ...

> differences between religions

lumping by religion isn't accurate ...

no one is 'the same' as someone else. It's not about religion, it's about HUMANS.

Everyone is born with gifts. Regardless of religion, we are all made the same way.

Children love everyone and all colors are beautiful. Then we 'learn' -- or do we? We all have free will to make decisions.

~~~
I shared this thread with a friend who isn't a member of this forum. He gave permission to quote him, so I will

"Hate & fear are well known (See Josef Goebbels on this.) tools to ensure that populaces can easily be manipulated."
~ Adrian Bell

~~~
btw, Tony, @Uncle Gizmo and Richard @The_Doc_Man, I did eventually watch the videos and appreciate the perspectives. However, the thread title is diversive
Click to expand...

Thanks Crystal. I agree with most everything you said, and the 'ignorant' was not intended to be targeted directly at you by any means (indeed, I'm not even sure if you've said anything that qualifies) - it was just a generically targeted statement that basically was, IMO, some religions are actually more dangerous than others, even despite the variances among individual adherents. Just that and nothing more.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I like the statement about children. I think this has mostly to do with safety. Children may not worry about safety when they are very young, but growing up they develop fears and also learn legitimate lessons which from which they generate opinions about all sorts of things & people. Some wrong some right.
 
strive4peace said:
Children love everyone and all colors are beautiful. Then we 'learn' -- or do we? We all have free will to make decisions.
Click to expand...

Actually, hatred of all kinds - racism, ethic hatred, religious hatred - are in the category of "learned behavior." It has been known for a long time, and even songwriters will bemoan that teaching. In fact, there was a furor about including this song in the stage production of "South Pacific."


The movie was 1958 but the play was on Broadway in 1949, which makes the song 75 years old.
 
strive4peace said:
Children love everyone and all colors are beautiful. Then we 'learn' -- or do we? We all have free will to make decisions.
Click to expand...
My daughter was 2 and a half when she first went to daycare. Prior to that she had been cared for by a neighbor who was staying home with her daughter until she was ready for kindergarten. Dorothy had been a friend and we had socialized a little before my daughter was born but we got much closer when we were both doing diapers every other day in the laundry room:) I had also planned to stay home until my daughter went to school but stuff happens and after 6 months my situation took a turn for the worse and I had to go back to work. Lucky for me, Dorothy offered to take care of Christine for me. It was the answer to my prayers. A friend was looking after her, she would have a playmate she knew and all I had to do in the morning was change her diaper and give her a bottle and bring her downstairs to Dorothy. Then Dorothy would feed and bathe her. Well all good things come to an end and it was time for Sharona to go to kindergarten. Christine was in daycare for 3 days when she came home and asked me if Dorothy was black. So I explained how skin color was like eye or hair color and she was cool with that.

Physical differences between people are irrelevant. However, when you are taught from birth that Jews are evil and you learn to count by counting dead Jews, it does something to you. That virulent hatred does something to your psyche much the way TDS affects people. Hating people with such a passion that prevents you from even seeing them as human does something terrible to you. That is the situation we have with the Palestinians. They are truly broken people and I don't know how you could possibly fix them. It is less of a problem with other Muslims. And the effect of that is that other Muslim nations are refusing to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza. They went down this road in 1948 and suffered greatly for it over the years since. In fact Kuwait expelled all Palestinians which represented 18% of their total population at the end of the first Gulf war because the Palestinians had sided with Iraq and worked against Kuwait during the invasion.

If we taught history better so that it was more about understanding what people were thinking and how that impacted their choices, it would be less boring than memorizing names and places and dates which is pretty useless in the end. But, understanding what was going on helps us to avoid making the same mistakes again.
 
A coworker of mine is Muslim, he is a very nice fellow with a reputation for good character and reasonably decent treatment of people.
So you have adherents to a religion that you may find very pleasant and good people.
In all cases.
Still, when I go behind the outward social projection of the person and read what the religion actually teaches, it makes me at least as wary of Islam as some of you are passionate about your feeling of fundamentalist Christianity (I'm thinking @Galaxiom). For example, you probably know that I don't support stoning gay people, and yet you put significant weight on the fact that somewhere at some time in the Bible such a thing was done. (well, not really, but something close to that).

I'm the same way. My Muslim friend can tell me all day long that he doesn't believe in such-and-such, but when I see what the religion actually teaches--what you're supposed to believe in--it gives me great pause.

Usama Dakdok, who broadcasts on VCY America. He was a devout Muslim and a well educated one, who is now no longer Muslim. He converted to Christianity at age 11, but went on to study and holds a degree in Islamic Law from a university.

He tells many truths about Islam that do not make it to the modern west. I've listened to several of his broadcasts and he quotes from the Koran quite a bit
 
The premise of this thread is the question of: Are Muslims and the Quran a threat to our society?
While I have responded in the affirmative to that question there is significant sociological trend that is being overlooked. The issue simply isn't about individuals who are Christian or Muslim being either good or bad. As I have previously expressed, the West is in the process of committing cultural suicide. The consequence is that we are undermining our own culture. So the threat isn't simply Muslims and the Quran being a threat to our society, but our own disavowal or Western culture.
 
Jews don't actively try to convert others although they do accept converts. Christians do actively try to convert others and many denominations have far reaching programs that go primarily these days to third world countries where they convert the indigenous people to Christianity.

Islam converts by conquest. None of this kindly missionary stuff. Islam was spread entirely by spilling blood. Christianity was spread by teaching and convincing people of the truth of Jesus. Which, in my mind is a huge difference in philosophy, despite some seemingly evil references in the Old Testament. Islam's position is that no non believers can be allowed to exist. Everyone must convert or die. In the case of Christians and Jews (people of the book (the Old Testament)), they do offer a third option which is to accept them as a subjugated class but only provided they pay annually for the privilege of keeping their lives.

So, in Africa, we still have Muslims killing or subjugating their Christian or heathen neighbors. We also have constant strife in countries where the population of Muslim-non Muslim is fairly split. Islam is now gaining ground in "Western" countries and the larger percentage of our population they represent, the more danger they are to us. The joy around the Muslim world when the 9/11 attack brought down the World Trade Towers was a sight to see. Seeing crowds in Muslim countries we think of as "friendly" to us rejoicing at the news and shouting death to America, death to the Jews should have been frightening. I took note of it and it changed how I think about Islam. My early delving into Sharia law and living in a Muslim country was something of an eye opener and it made me feel bad for the women trapped in this religion but the Qur'an wasn't something I had read any of until after 9/11.

The word "Islam" means to submit and they take this seriously. We should also.
 
Much of America is based on a fairly constant stream of immigrants. We have immigration laws to manage the import stream so that people have time to assimilate. You can't just throw 10 + million people into our cities as the Harris/Biden administration has done and expect these people to assimilate. So, instead they clump together so they have some kind of support system and what we are in danger of is bringing "there" to "here" because people are not assimilating as they used to. We need "them" to become "us" not vice versa.
 
Steve R. said:
And that is the problem. We "refuse" to insist that they become "us".
Click to expand...
We can't insist. The left tells us that is bigoted because it implies that we are somehow better than them. But, that's not it at all. Having people among us who are different isn't a problem until we are expected to adopt their morals and customs rather than them adopting ours. You don't want guests in your house who complain that you have a better bedroom than they do.

I have travelled extensively. Some of my furniture has circumnavigated the globe although I've only covered about 75%. Some going east and some going west. I've lived abroad and also spent long vacations (a month) in foreign countries. I never forget that I am a guest although I do have my limits. I didn't wear an aba (the black full body drape) while I lived in Kuwait although i did try one on. It is a very light crepe like material so the material has a lot of grab unlike sateen which is as slippery as ice. But even with all that helpful grab, I couldn't keep the thing on. You have to wear it from childhood so you learn how to move and can use only one hand to keep the front sort of closed. But I did respect their modesty code as best I could beyond that. Mid-arm sleeves, long pants, long skirts, etc. That's a lot given that it was 110 degrees every day in the summer and I would rather have been in shorts and a halter top. At least it was a dry heat.

I've found things to like about every country I've visited. There are things they do better than we do. Other things are just different. Like in Australia (where I spent a month with my brother just travelling around) where pizza restaurants were never open for lunch. They were only open at dinner time. But I would never even consider moving to a country where I didn't like their laws or morals. So, Kuwait was an interesting place to live for a while but I was never moving there permanently. Prior to COVID, I would have considered moving to Australia but not now. They went bats*** crazy with their lock down. Who knew they had it in them. I guess that is another benefit of us having states so the federal government just can't do certain things. At least there were some free states here during COVID.

One thing about Kuwait that left a very negative impression was Ramadan. Ramadan is a complete lunar month where Muslims are supposed to fast from sunrise to sunset. In addition to fasting, they are supposed to abstain from human touch and even drinking water. Exceptions of course for the ill, the pregnant and mothers of small children. So work days were shortened because you can't be at your best for a full work day with no food or water. Even the men working outside in the heat couldn't drink. But, hotels are for travellers and travellers are not all Muslims so all the hotels in town, temporarily closed their lobby restaurants and bars and only served in the special restaurants which were usually on the roof and away from public view. So, if you're travelling the rules are loosened and you were expected to make it up when you got home. But, instead, we saw the same people we saw regularly when we ate out and so we know they were not travellers. But even worse, the malls would only be open for the morning and then they would close but reopen after sunset and stay open for the rest of a "day".

So, I understand the travellers exceptions but it seems to violate the spirit of Ramadan if you reorient your life so you sleep during the day and party all night. It's like giving up mushrooms which I hate, for Lent. No skin off my nose and I won't be tempted to break my promise. Everything about Ramadan just screamed hyprocasy to me.
 
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thanks, @Pat Hartman. good to read your perspective and lol about clothing ... I have a Sari made in India from silk, acquired when I was there. I did learn how to put it on and tie it, but it was never comfortable for me ... cotton is the best ... like galabeyas ;)

on traveling ... one time I arrived in Dallas (bible belt) and forgot to pack underwear. Went to to a store and got what I needed but when I came to the cash register, they told me they couldn't sell those items on a Sunday!
since then. I've never forgotten to pack essentials ~

so it isn't just foreign places where strange and unexpected things happen

> spirit of Ramadan

very few like being told what to think and do ... and this is a good example. Just as they defy what is 'mandated' for the holiday, so can they think their own way.

Some do keep with the tradition. If you examine the reason, you might see that it is good for the human body to 'fast' ... although I can't refrain from drinking water!

Lots of religious rules are to keep our bodies more healthy. For instance, look at Kosher foods ... they knock out lots that could give us a disease, back when the text was written.

as far as Ramadan ... those I know don't 'sleep during the day and party all night' ... maybe they used to though, lol. I can imagine how workers might take advantage of that ... after all we are in their land producing their resources and get more than they do in return.

I don't know about the contract with the company you worked for ... but a contract I do know a little about agreed to employ half the staff from the native country ... some were bosses but mostly underlings.

I'm 3rd-generation oil patch and even though I have a degree in Petroleum Engineering, I decided not to pursue it -- not only because I know that burning oil and gas harms the environment, but also that taking it out of the ground weakens the structural foundation: without slippery hydrocarbons, when sliding happens, it creates more devastating effects on the surface like earth quakes.

I like softer energy paths like geothermal, hydroelectric, and wind (although I prefer turbines to be smaller and use more of them because I agree that the very tall ones that go high into the atmosphere radiate waves and winds harmful to life).

Solar is of course, another good one too, for ultimately, that's the source for all -- however we need to invest into much better technologies to store the energy to use more of what is natural (like sand composed primarily of silica).

Houses can also be designed for 'passive solar', which has guidelines for window overhangs to block summer sun and let in winter sun, where to plant trees, as well as actual use of solar like panels, water drums and tubing.

> found things to like about every country I've visited. There are things they do better than we do

indeed!
 
"assimilated" should mean this, in my opinion:

you have freedom to think and do as you wish as long as you don't infringe upon the rights of another

~~~
most ARE inherently considerate of others
megalomaniacs that crave power and control cannot be trusted

most humans are inherently good ... but there is a fraction that isn't, no matter where you were raised.
 
The_Doc_Man said:
True - but we have no idea how many of them came to assimilate US.
Click to expand...
In the past, pretty much everyone who came to stay, wanted to BE an American. The first generation spoke spotty English with an Accent but the children always learned quickly to speak like a native and parents found it difficult to keep the "old" country's language alive.

Once illegal immigration got out of control, people stopped assimilating. We had schools in border areas where they were teaching all classes in Spanish rather than having an immersion class to learn English and then mainstreaming the kids.

We are still printing instructions on how to fill out a ballot in Spanish. Doesn't seem to matter that being able to speak and read English is a requirement for citizenship.

@strive4peace I worked for a Danish company. in order to do business in Kuwait, they needed a Kuwaiti "partner". This partner owned 51% of the business and didn't have to put up any money. They were our "interface" with the Kuwaiti world and helped to facilitate stuff. The project team had a suite of offices that was 6 rooms plus a private bathroom and including a partial kitchen. The private bathroom was good because the secretary and I were the only women in our wing of the building and there was no facility dedicated to women. Apparently there were women in the other wing because they told us we could use the common facility and the farash would guard the door. The farash who sat outside the restroom also made tea. "farash" was their name for gofer (people who did menial jobs) There was another farash who washed our car every day for about 50 cents. Most days we ate in. There were 8 of us in the office. We decided what we wanted to eat. One person went shopping and another cooked if cooking was required and a third did cleanup. We went out to eat once or twice each week.
 
Pat Hartman said:
You can't just throw 10 + million people into our cities
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And you ESPECIALLY shouldn't try to throw 10 + million people into tiny, already near-destitute towns of population-1000-people, scattered all around the Arizona and Texas border. One day's immigration doubles the town population, how are they now supposed to serve those people ????

No matter what they say, Texas governor's plan was brilliant and worked exceptionally well. It brought immigration to be a household topic for ALL Americans, not just CA, TX & AZ - for once. It made it so the Democrats could no longer pretend the issue didn't exist - people in NYC even were finally demanding change.

Now we just need, if I'm being totally honest, the economy to temporarily plummet a bit so Trump wins.
 
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