Attack on Israel (1 Viewer)

Pat Hartman

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How far should Israel go to retaliate? I say turn Gaza to glass as well as all the nuclear reactors in Iran that they have targeting info for. How many times does this have to happen? If there is intel that the 85 BILLIONS of dollars worth of US weapons that Biden so kindly GAVE to the Taliban are actually being used as is being widely reported, then destroy Bagram airbase too.
 

ColinEssex

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Wasn't there a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine some years back? I recall it was brokered by an American President at the time.
I may be wrong of course, no doubt someone here will call me ignorant if I am.
Col
 

Pat Hartman

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I know you like to blame us for everything but if the agreement was between Israel and Palestine, how exactly did an American President break it? On the other hand, we have brokered a number of peace deals but NEVER with the Palestinians as far as I remember. When Yasser Arafat was leading the PLO there were talks but I don't remember anything except temporary treaties to end the various wars or uprisings. The world was aghast when the Trump administration brokered the Abraham Accords that did NOT include the PLO because they didn't want to come to the table. Instead, several countries initially and more later normalized relations with Israel to everyone's benefit.

There have been at least 7 wars that Israel has had to fight against its Arab neighbors including the war of independence in 1948. The Britts gave Palestine to the Jews but Israel had to fight from day one for its existence. There have been even more conflicts if you count uprisings and skirmishes. I don't see any that Israel started.

This has to stop. Israel has always caved to world pressure and not pressed its advantage. This time, they should occupy the territory and NOT GIVE IT BACK. Those are the spoils of war. They attack you, you win, you get to keep whatever territory you gained by the conflict. The Palestinians have NO interest in any equitable settlement. Israel eventually gave the Palestinians Gaza and gave the Sinai back to Egypt but kept parts of the West Bank and the Golan heights because there was no way to secure the border at those points.

This is a case where everyone forgets the history. The Arabs and Hitler were good buddies during WWII and were persecuting their Jewish populations even back then. The parents of a very good friend were driven out of Iraq in the thirties and ended up emigrating to China where there was a large Jewish community in one of the large cities. My friend was born in China. Then the family emigrated to Australia where he grew up. He eventually came to the US and his siblings ended up in Canada and his parents retired to Israel.

After the war when Britain was removing itself from the Palestine mandate, they ultimately assigned control of the territory to the Jews. The High Mufti of Jerusalem who was budds with Hitler, convinced a good portion of the population that the Jews would persecute them. So, these poor souls left everything and became refugees in the surrounding countries. This is where Muslim culture turns ugly. The neighboring countries refused to give the refugees citizenship even though they were the losers in the war. Usually, when a war ends, where you end up is what you are. So if you're on the Israeli side of the border, you're Israeli, if you're on the Lebanese side of the border, you're Lebanese and life goes on. Not in this case. There was a hard line in ALL the neighboring countries that prevented the Palestinians from becoming citizens. Their children and grandchildren, etc are also NOT CITIZENS!!! That left them as perpetual refugees unable to avail themselves of the welfare services and opportunities of the country where they now lived. They couldn't own more than 49% of any business even if they provided 100% of the financing. There were other property restrictions. They were stateless and couldn't even be issued passports. There are refugee camps TO THIS DAY, all over the Middle East. Some have turned into actual cities.

The Palestinian Crisis will NEVER go away until these refugees can be assimilated. It's not like an Iraqi coming here and not assimilating. If he doesn't assimilate, it is by his choice. Not ours. Over there, they are refugees who speak the same language, and follow the same religion and customs. There should not be a barrier to assimilation. The ones who ended up in Gaza or the West Bank were the lucky ones because they ultimately got self governance and are technically Israeli citizens. Rather than making nice and being peaceful neighbors, the Arabs have maintained an ongoing terrorist assault on Israel and Israelis. this has forced Israel to militarize the border and restrict crossings to minimize the terrorist attacks. These bombing attacks are so prevalent that most homes in Israel have hardened safe rooms where people go to hide while the bombing is going on. They don't even get reported in our news anymore unless they are so bad that the Israelis have no option but to retaliate. At that point the UN jumps on Israel for "overreacting". What's a few bombs and dead people between neighbors? Somebody has to stop the madness and that has to be the Muslims since Israel retaliates but doesn't start the conflicts. There is no way the Muslims who left Israel in 1948 are getting reparations. They left voluntarily and I even think Israel offered to let them come back after the fighting stopped. But, the High Mufti and the other leaders, thought they could force the world to give them control over Israel if they kept up the chaos and kept the refugees from returning and here we are today, 77 years later and counting.
 
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The_Doc_Man

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Wasn't there a peace agreement between Israel and Palestine some years back? I recall it was brokered by an American President at the time.
I may be wrong of course, no doubt someone here will call me ignorant if I am.
Col

There have been several such agreements but the problem is that the extremist Muslims take the attitude that Israel should not even exist. So they bide their time after a negotiation to appease them and then eventually get tired of being "Mr. Nice Guy." (Not that they would often be mistaken for that role...)

Hamas is a terror-oriented organization and decided it was time to take a stand. Their problem, and it has happened before, is this: If they make TOO much of a stand, they justify Israeli actions to eliminate them in a formally declared war. A skirmish pops up. Israel kicks big-time butt. The Hamas group withdraws to lick their wounds and try again later. Well, this time, they took too much of a stand and the formal shooting war has actually started. They might seek some kind of appeasement settlement. They've done it before.

Problem is, appeasement has never worked well throughout history. (See, for example, late 1930's England.) It is probably time to evict a lot of Gaza Strip Muslims who have loose ties to Hamas. For those with stronger ties, more than eviction might well be in order.

When Hamas or any other extremist group performs barbaric acts (even with modern weapons), they demonstrate the need for others to truly understand the art of negotiation. Rule #1: The only way to negotiate with a barbarian is by holding a sharp knife to his jugular vein. Barbarians only negotiate when confronted with extreme force, extreme enough to make them worry about depopulation of their own people and removal of their own personal blood supply via decapitation.

Note that I am NOT saying that might makes right. But might often persuades difficult parties to talk instead of shoot. I have no hope of that doing much good for at least a while here.
 

ColinEssex

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I know you like to blame us for everything but if the agreement was between Israel and Palestine, how exactly did an American President break it?
I'm not blaming the USA for anything. 'Brokered' means to act as an intermediary between two sides or to put together a deal satisfactory to both parties. Like an insurance broker does.
I will try to remember you are American so English is not your first language.
Col
 

The_Doc_Man

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Religion is the root of all evil.
Col

While I am known to show atheist tendencies, I have to say that religion has no lock on inflaming Man's inhumane traits. Politics and greed are also contributors. Also, total stubbornness is a big factor. I'll bet some folks are ready to ask me if I'm feeling well by not bashing religion - but I believe that in this case, religion is not a primary cause. This is one of those older factors that, in Germany in the early 20th century, was called Lebensraum - literally, room or space to live and (implied) to grow.

Despite it being a wise piece of advice, "live and let live" doesn't usually work very well because it seems to only take a short while for the "anger pot" to bubble over. Folks (like Hamas) can only live and let live for a while before they want more without regard for who would lose if they win. For them, it is the inability to see others as equally deserving people. Religion often tries with basic principles that should - but apparently do not - stick well with their congregations. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Hamas launched deadly rocket attacks, so Israel did unto them what they had done to Israel. Well, DUH! What did they expect?

Sadly, we have an inbred trait we got through evolution... call it "territoriality" or "tribalism" or pick another name. Our saurian ancestors needed a certain amount of territory to provide adequate food, so the thunder lizards defended that territory against intruders. Now we protect our territory (or try to) against all who are different. It would represent a big diversion for this thread but I believe a case could be made that at base, Americans object to illegal immigrants as an offshoot of this some inherited evolutionary factor - the protection of me and mine against thee and thine, which is another form of tribalism.
 

Steve R.

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Time for this to end. Should that mean obliterating Gaza so be it. War is a dirty business.

The Islamic world has been advocating genocide against Jews. As such Iseal has an obligation to use whatever force (violence) they need to bring Islamic terror to an end.

There is a greater perspective to this heinous attack by Hamas. The Western world, as a whole, has been ceding territory to radical Islamic expansion since the end of WWI. Repeat WWi. To be very brief, since I'm not home and using a tablet: the West has failed to protect the Cristians and Jews in the Middle East. This current attack by Hamas is part of that process and must be repulsed.
 

Steve R.

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I was appalled by a recent CNBC interview of a Jewish person in Tel Aviv. The Jewish respondent was appropriately outraged by Hamas butchary, but he went on to thank Obama and Biden for their "support". No mention of Trump. Seems this guy is missing that both Obama and Biden are actually anti-Israeli. Both Obama and Biden have been empowering Iran. Iran has been promoting anti-Isreali terrorism. Obama and Biden are lying about supporting Israel.
 

MarkK

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If "kill them all" seems like a reasonable approach to you, and you don't mind making statements to that effect in a public forum, then I think it is fair to point out what a pathetic, simple-minded, and adolescent approach that is as a response to violence. How would the suffering of what you propose not be exactly the same, in kind, as what has already happened? And how do you not then become exactly the thing it is that you ostensibly object to?

To put it another way, if you think "kill them all" is a reasonable response, then how can you object in any principled way to their effort to "kill them all?" You effectively share their values. You validate their intent, because you echo it, you share it, and you promote it.

If you think the distribution of horror and death on a mass scale is a solution to something, you are an idiot.
 

Steve R.

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Are you advocating genocide?

Are you advocating genocide?
The Arab states have apparently declined absorbing the Palestinians into ther respective countries to end this conflict.

The Palestinians refuse to end their genocide of Israel.
 
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The_Doc_Man

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If "kill them all" seems like a reasonable approach to you, and you don't mind making statements to that effect in a public forum, then I think it is fair to point out what a pathetic, simple-minded, and adolescent approach that is as a response to violence. How would the suffering of what you propose not be exactly the same, in kind, as what has already happened? And how do you not then become exactly the thing it is that you ostensibly object to?

To put it another way, if you think "kill them all" is a reasonable response, then how can you object in any principled way to their effort to "kill them all?" You effectively share their values. You validate their intent, because you echo it, you share it, and you promote it.

If you think the distribution of horror and death on a mass scale is a solution to something, you are an idiot.

Sorry, MarkK but there is another facet. Your pacifist views are yours, but I respectfully suggest they are incomplete and perhaps a bit idealistic.

Don't forget that we get the idea of avoiding excessive punishment ("let the punishment fit the crime" concept) from the Jewish culture and King Solomon, who declared "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life." Hamas's initial combined rocket and ground attacks killed over 1000 people. You appear to not understand that when faced with barbarian logic (as shown by Hamas) that you must FIRST get their attention, which sadly requires a bit of barbarity to make them step back. You decry the suffering, yet APPEAR to ignore that Hamas started the latest round of suffering. Well, war is like that, and Hamas informally declared war on Israel. Is it truly a surprise that Israel would then return the favor and formally declare war on Hamas?

The Jewish people, throughout history, have been displaced in various diasporas including Russian and German persecution. But there were French diasporas as well - all of them telling the Jews they weren't welcome. And let's not forget the pre-Christian diaspora from Egypt, if you believe the Bible's book of Exodus. In 1948, the Jewish people got a homeland and they vowed to never again be pushed away from that homeland. They jealously protect what they have because it took them ... not decades or centuries, but millennia to secure a homeland. And they offer credible threats of force to those who would interfere. Usually it is a sufficient deterrent. The threat of serious retaliation is a good deterrent. The threat of near-complete annihilation has to sink in as a deterrent to future actions of this type.

On the larger stage, the world has not had a nuclear war because the countries with whom that would be most likely know that we have enough firepower that while we might lose, they surely wouldn't win. There would be no victory celebration. Mutually assured destruction is a great deterrent even for lunatics like President Kim of North Korea.

You want to know if we are advocating genocide. Perhaps, perhaps not. But the usual treatment for a cancer is surgical excision. Gaza has repeatedly become like a cancer in Israel's side. I have lost track of how many times this region flared up. Repeated concessions have not worked because Hamas wants to eliminate Israel. They are intransigent in this sentiment. When you have the irresistible force / immovable object conundrum, you can expect non-trivial mayhem. And so we have that. What did you expect to happen? A fly-over dropping flowers?
 

Mike Krailo

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If "kill them all" seems like a reasonable approach to you, and you don't mind making statements to that effect in a public forum, then I think it is fair to point out what a pathetic, simple-minded, and adolescent approach that is as a response to violence.
I'm pretty sure the terrorists that attacked FIRST we're thinking "kill them all" but that was not the order given or they couldn't possibly do it due to lack of resources. They have taken many prisoners in hopes of doing some future negotiations. Had they had any more powerful weapons or more terrorists, it would have been even more of a blood bath than it already is. When your in a war, there is no being nice to the enemy that is trying to kill you. Genghis Khan would have annihilated these terrorists long ago and probably many more because he was good at it. And he actually did the kill them all thing to include every living thing in the area.

Now imagine it was your family in those houses that got attacked and it was your family that paid the price. Then there is no longer an option to pussy foot around the issue. I cannot imagine having to live like that, where your neighbors on the border are always plotting to kill you. That's a very toxic environment to live in. Some people love violence to the point that they will do anything to create more of it until they get what they want as a group. That's why they are called terrorists.
 

Pat Hartman

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Religion is the root of all evil.
Much of the evil in the world has been perpetrated in the name of the Lord. Some of the people of the book (Christians) have woken up and smelled the coffee but not all of them. The Muslims are still very much tied to the hatred in their third installment of "the book". Mohamad hated the Jews because they would not join his movement. So the Koran says that if a people will not join the "believers", they must be subjugated or killed and there we are today 1200 years later, still trying to kill the Jews. Others too but especially Jews. There can be no peace EVER unless the Muslims are willing to walk away from that part of the Koran.
Americans object to illegal immigrants as an offshoot of this some inherited evolutionary factor - the protection of me and mine against thee and thine, which is another form of tribalism.
You are wrong about that Doc. Illegal is illegal. These people are breaking our laws to enter this country or to overstay their visas and they KNOW IT. Why would we ever want to welcome anyone who comes here just to steal from us? They have no interest in the American Dream. They only want to take what is ours and bring their lawlessness here. There is always unease when large numbers of "others" come en masse but this is different, This is an actual invasion.

@MarkK Exactly how many times does Israel have to suffer this kind of attack from the Muslims that surround them? How would you like to see your grandmother murdered on a video feed or your wife dragged away and ra***? These people are rabid animals. Israel has tried appeasement and retaliation as well as separation. Nothing works when the enemy's only objective is to see you dead. It is time to excise the cancer.

War is ugly. Wars used to be fought to win. Otherwise, what is the point? Korea, Viet Nam, and both Gulf Wars were not fought to win but to contain a threat. They cost a lot of lives and treasure and didn't make us safer.
 

The_Doc_Man

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You are wrong about that Doc. Illegal is illegal.

While I don't disagree with your tautology, I'm saying that besides disliking the entrance of illegal immigrants, ANOTHER factor may contribute to the visceral response that some people have regarding such immigration. I don't want to welcome them here either. I just happen to think that there are multiple dislikes in play on the illegal immigration issue.

While discussing what Hamas has done, it would appear that their latest abomination is to decapitate babies in the presence of their mothers. There is some indication (not easy to corroborate at this stage) that the mothers are also sexually molested in the process. Easier to corroborate are stories of killing grandmothers as well as children. Killing not only with rockets but also in their door-to-door campaign with rifles and knives.
 

Pat Hartman

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There is a special place in hell for these soulless pigs and there won't be 72 virgins waiting there. Unless, they have razors for teeth.
 

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