Attack on Israel

[Steve R.]

And it's time to find a solution because ...

The solution is that the Palestinians stop fighting!!! Gaza, could have been a city state like Singapore if the Palestinians were "good" capitalists instead of terrorists.

Then there is Iran funding and promoting terrorism. Are you, in the name of finding a solution, demanding that Iran end supporting terrorism and Islamic aggression?

Where is the UN in all this? In theory the UN could intervene to disarm Hamas and Hezbollah. Unfortunately, the silence of the UN implies that they are anti-Israeli and will let the terrorists attack Israel. So much for the UN making peace possible (sarcasm).

 

[Pat Hartman]

You really need to read history. There WAS a two state solution. It didn't last 24 hours because Egypt annexed Gaza and Jordan annexed Sumeria and Judea. NO Muslim wants Israel to exist and they also didn't want a peaceful two state solution. The Qur'an tells them to subjugate or kill all the Jews and everybody else. Christianity and Judaism don't tell us to kill the non-believers. That is the elephant in the room. They intend to kill us because the Qur'an tells them to. Islam means obedience and the followers are nothing if not obedient.

Christianity spread by people peacefully spreading the word of Jesus. Islam was spread by war and killing.

The Muslims can't give up the order to kill the unbelievers. Saying that any part of the Qur'an is wrong would destroy their faith. This is a conundrum for the modern world. A large group of people want to actually kill the rest of us.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Neither side may want a two state solution but both sides want to eradicate each other.

This statement is blatantly incorrect. Israel has had many Islamic people within its own borders living in peace, until Hamas decided it was time to implement the "from the river to the sea" solution. Israel wants peace. Hamas wants absolute supremacy. Your eyes are closed to history and reality. With no disrespect intended, I have to say that you have a biased viewpoint to historical facts that would explain things differently than you do. I don't have the time to educate you, though Pat has also offered specifics that tend to diminish your argument.

 

[Dave E]

You really need to read history. There WAS a two state solution. It didn't last 24 hours because Egypt annexed Gaza and Jordan annexed Sumeria and Judea. NO Muslim wants Israel to exist and they also didn't want a peaceful two state solution. The Qur'an tells them to subjugate or kill all the Jews and everybody else. Christianity and Judaism don't tell us to kill the non-believers. That is the elephant in the room. They intend to kill us because the Qur'an tells them to. Islam means obedience and the followers are nothing if not obedient.

Christianity spread by people peacefully spreading the word of Jesus. Islam was spread by war and killing.

The Muslims can't give up the order to kill the unbelievers. Saying that any part of the Qur'an is wrong would destroy their faith. This is a conundrum for the modern world. A large group of people want to actually kill the rest of us.

Now tell me, Pat, was that before or after the Israelis were pushing out the Palestinians to make room for an expanded Israel? I see no difference in the two tribes fighting each other except one has power and persuasion in the US and one doesn't. I don't see anyone trying to push the Iranians out of their land...I wonder why?

I am neither siding with Israel or the Palestinians but I have seen the long slow, insidious land-grabbing by the Israelis and I've seen the less-than sophisticated responses from the Palestinians, but Israel is currently illegally occupying Palestinian land and using the Palestinian incursion as a smoke screen to enable them to go large, as they say in the States.
Even the Israeli people are tired of their leaders and leadership and the mess their getting their state into.
Start worrying more if there is ever peace in the Middle East because I fear the Middle East will turn outward.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Israelis were pushing out the Palestinians to make room for an expanded Israel

I don't know what you are talking about. Wars have consequences. Israel was attacked by its neighbors, Palestinian residents of Israel supported the attack. Israel ended up by occupying Gaza and Sumeria and Judea. And this time (1967), didn't give them back. In order to properly manage these places, Israel had to create settlements that could integrate the districts so the country wasn't segregated. The Palestinians REFUSE to be good neighbors. Israel finally had to build walls to try to keep out the suicide bombers.

Kuwait expelled several hundred thousand Palestinians after the first Gulf war because they were actively working with the Iraqis. That represented more than 18% of their population.

I think we are somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 invasions of Israel by its Arab neighbors. They are intent on killing all the Jews. If they stop and leave Israel in peace. There will be peace. THAT is the solution. Israel OWNs the territory but that is ONLY because of the war. Israel occupied the territory as it fought back and then kept the territory they occupied. If the 1967 war didn't happen, Gaza would still be occupied by Egypt and the West Bank would still be occupied by Jordan.

Since the Arabs flatly refuse to allow Israel to exist unmolested, just what exactly do you think is the solution? The 2-state solution has been tried and failed. The Arabs want the Jews gone. That is what "from the river to the sea" means.

 

[Steve R.]

Now tell me, Pat, was that before or after the Israelis were pushing out the Palestinians to make room for an expanded Israel?

A biased attitude. The Jews were there before any Palestinians were there. Over the course of history tribes have displaced other tribes to the point that no one can claim to own the land. Are you going to condemn the Turks for displacing Greeks and Armenians. Currently, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey are practicing genocide against the Kurds. Are you going to demand that the Kurds get their own nation state?

Consider that in September 1970 Jordan instituted an attack on Palestinians in Jordan as the Palestinians were considered a threat. Overall it appears that none of the other Arab states want Palestinians in their territory  Egypt doesn't want them. So why should Israel have to tolerate them (and suffer endless rocket attacks)?

Prior to Hezbollah taking over Lebanon, Lebanon was a prosperous Christian country.

 

[Pat Hartman]

The Jews were there before any Palestinians were there.

Judea and Sumeria were mentioned in the Bible. The name "Palestine" came into being during the Ottoman Turk occupation of the area. The Ottoman empire was on the wrong side of WWI and so the British ended up administering the part that was called the "Palestine Mandate". The Brits gradually broke it up and in 1948 made the final 2-state division which lasted less than 24 hours.

 

[adhoustonj]

Now tell me, Pat, was that before or after the Israelis were pushing out the Palestinians to make room for an expanded Israel? I see no difference in the two tribes fighting each other except one has power and persuasion in the US and one doesn't. I don't see anyone trying to push the Iranians out of their land...I wonder why?

I am neither siding with Israel or the Palestinians but I have seen the long slow, insidious land-grabbing by the Israelis and I've seen the less-than sophisticated responses from the Palestinians, but Israel is currently illegally occupying Palestinian land and using the Palestinian incursion as a smoke screen to enable them to go large, as they say in the States.
Even the Israeli people are tired of their leaders and leadership and the mess their getting their state into.
Start worrying more if there is ever peace in the Middle East because I fear the Middle East will turn outward.

I mean have you also seen the videos of Israeli's beating on prison walls because they were denied their privilege to ra** the Palestinian prisoners? Or the video of the Israeli soldiers raping Palestinian prisoners behind shields?

Disgusting. Israel has dropped more tonnage of bombs on Gaza since October 2023 than all of what was dropped on London, Hiroshima, Dresden in World War 2.

But you know, our media in the US paints a perfect picture. If you look at Ghislaine Maxwell's father's profession, maybe some of the pieces will fall into place with the same 5 narratives are fed through 100 different news channels.

Mankind can do better. Mankind won't do better when people on the face of this Earth, Israeli, Palestinian, Ughyur, North Koreans, Ukranian, whatever Nation people want to claim, are treated as such as they are in this day and age. Never.

But let there be no peace. Where would all the money come from if this World was a peaceful planet?

 

[adhoustonj]

If anyone wants to see the truth - I'll show you what is really going on every day, right here. It is all okay for us to come in here and talk about it, clutch our opinions, converse, go back and forth.... Want to see? If it is okay for us to talk about it openly, it must be okay to see what we are talking about, right? Or is it... is it one of those kinds of conversations?

 

[Isaac]

You really need to read history. There WAS a two state solution. It didn't last 24 hours because Egypt annexed Gaza and Jordan annexed Sumeria and Judea. NO Muslim wants Israel to exist and they also didn't want a peaceful two state solution. The Qur'an tells them to subjugate or kill all the Jews and everybody else. Christianity and Judaism don't tell us to kill the non-believers. That is the elephant in the room. They intend to kill us because the Qur'an tells them to. Islam means obedience and the followers are nothing if not obedient.

Christianity spread by people peacefully spreading the word of Jesus. Islam was spread by war and killing.

The Muslims can't give up the order to kill the unbelievers. Saying that any part of the Qur'an is wrong would destroy their faith. This is a conundrum for the modern world. A large group of people want to actually kill the rest of us.

It's amazing how many anti-Israel people do not know the history of the times we've already tried to give the Palestinians their own state, and the opposition to it was largely from Arab countries! We cannot keep doing it every few years.

 

[Isaac]

If anyone wants to see the truth - I'll show you what is really going on every day, right here. It is all okay for us to come in here and talk about it, clutch our opinions, converse, go back and forth.... Want to see? If it is okay for us to talk about it openly, it must be okay to see what we are talking about, right? Or is it... is it one of those kinds of conversations?

Go for it. If whatever you are about to post violates the forum rules, I suppose one of our every busy admins will be glad to correct the situation.
Sure, we want to hear it. If you're about the post something gruesome, I'd be prepared for a removal but if your intentions are sincere in doing so, give it a go.

 

[Isaac]

I mean have you also seen the videos of Israeli's beating on prison walls because they were denied their privilege to ra** the Palestinian prisoners? Or the video of the Israeli soldiers raping Palestinian prisoners behind shields?

Disgusting. Israel has dropped more tonnage of bombs on Gaza since October 2023 than all of what was dropped on London, Hiroshima, Dresden in World War 2.

But you know, our media in the US paints a perfect picture. If you look at Ghislaine Maxwell's father's profession, maybe some of the pieces will fall into place with the same 5 narratives are fed through 100 different news channels.

Mankind can do better. Mankind won't do better when people on the face of this Earth, Israeli, Palestinian, Ughyur, North Koreans, Ukranian, whatever Nation people want to claim, are treated as such as they are in this day and age. Never.

But let there be no peace. Where would all the money come from if this World was a peaceful planet?

I personally am uncertain whether the Israelis are doing the right thing right now. However, I do stand up for true history when it comes to questions on why they don't yet have their 2-state solution - those reasons are clear, and are not the Israeli's fault. It's been tried several times, and Arab countries mostly opposed it. Arabs refuse to take Palestinian refugees because they are so much trouble.

But as to what the Israeli's have done since 10/3, I am uncertain if it is the right thing. Everyone tells their sides. Israelis say they are doing best they can against an enemy that WE KNOW hides itself in hospitals and schools. Palestinians say it is unconscionable. I think to some extent they are reaping what they have sown - deliberately electing a terrorist organization to be their "leaders" - a pretty stupid decision

 

[adhoustonj]

It's amazing how many anti-Israel people do not know the history of the times we've already tried to give the Palestinians their own state, and the opposition to it was largely from Arab countries! We cannot keep doing it every few years.

I'm far from Anti-Israeli.. I have a problem with selective outrage and selective condemnation. War is hell. We should be better. And there is no reason not to be, for the greater good of mankind.

 

[adhoustonj]

I personally am uncertain whether the Israelis are doing the right thing right now. However, I do stand up for true history when it comes to questions on why they don't yet have their 2-state solution - those reasons are clear, and are not the Israeli's fault. It's been tried several times, and Arab countries mostly opposed it. Arabs refuse to take Palestinian refugees because they are so much trouble.

But as to what the Israeli's have done since 10/3, I am uncertain if it is the right thing. Everyone tells their sides. Israelis say they are doing best they can against an enemy that WE KNOW hides itself in hospitals and schools. Palestinians say it is unconscionable. I think to some extent they are reaping what they have sown - deliberately electing a terrorist organization to be their "leaders" - a pretty stupid decision

I do want to say @Isaac that I appreciate your words of wisdom.

As far as I am concerned, there is no room for justification of any actions

 

[Steve R.]

I'm far from Anti-Israeli.. I have a problem with selective outrage and selective condemnation. War is hell. We should be better. And there is no reason not to be, for the greater good of mankind.

That is exactly what your are doing, selective anti-Israeli outrage and condemnation. War is hell, yet the Palestinians are fanatically enthralled by it. Guess martyrdom is what they passionately demand that Israel deliver to them.

Unbelievably, the US under the Biden administration is funding both sides to keep the war going. For the greater good of mankind, call on the Palestinians to stand down and develop Gaza into the image of Singapore instead of an armed fortress. Additionally demand that Biden administration stop providing the terrorists with aid (directly and/or indirectly).

As far as I am concerned, there is no room for justification of any actions

Does that include condemning Iran for promoting radical Islam and terrorism?

 

[Isaac]

there is no room for justification of any actions

if I take these words literally it sounds like an impossible thing to say, so what do you mean?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

there is no room for justification of any actions

It is true that actions speak louder than words, but if that is true, then Hamas spoke VERY LOUDLY on Oct. 7th and there is no possible justification for things that they did - including violation and murder of women and children and even infant children. If there is no possible justification then what do you do? Ignore what happened?

What YOU appear to not understand is that when faced with barbarians you first hit them in the mouth with a spiked crowbar in order to get their attention. Then you beat them with said crowbar until they are ready to sit down at a bargaining table. Then you make it clear to them that Israel ALSO has a right to exist. And if that requires extra strokes with the crowbar to be convincing, you do it.

Sounds violent? Yes, but when faced with the unjustifiable actions of barbarians whose morality stems from 7th century religion, you have nothing left but beat them into submission or beat them to death. Do you not understand this point? We are dealing with the conundrum of the irresistible force and the immovable object here - the ultimate paradox - and all that is left is to see who blinks.

 

[Pat Hartman]

War is hell. We should be better. And there is no reason not to be, for the greater good of mankind.

War is hell. That is why wars should be fought to win as soon as possible. I'm going to mention yet another of the morality plays from the first version of Star Trek. The enterprise materializes in a new star system only to find itself in the middle of a local war. People from planetA contact the crew and tell them that their ship has been destroyed and they need to report to the planets surface so they can be disposed of. So Kirk and the away team beam down. This war has been going on for generations. It started as all wars do as a hot war with actual destruction of property and humans. The parties eventually agreed that this couldn't go on so they assigned the war to computers. The computers would calculate what was destroyed and how many people and those people would present themselves to be euthanized. Kirk and the crew decided that this was far worse than the real thing since it would never end so they killed the computers leaving the warring parties to go back to shooting real rockets or making actual peace.

Why do you never call for the Palestinians to throw down their weapons and turn over all their rockets to the Israelis? Every time the Israelis stop the fight, the Palestinians take the quiet period to rearm and start killing Jews all over again. HOW MANY TIMES, look it up for yourself, has this happened since 1948? WHY would this time be any different? How stupid do you think the Jews are? What the Palestinians did on Oct 7 - which the civilian population was in favor of BTW - deserves retribution. They violated every rule of humanity. They are even more evil than Hitler and the Russians (who are waging war in Ukraine exactly the same way that the Palestinians do). They are targeting civilians, not military. They are raping women and children. This is not war, it is TERRORISM. They are not fighting a war to win. They are fighting to make the Israeli civilians live in total terror. Therefore, Israel will keep killing Palestinians until they give up and agree to a LASTING peace. The Israelis need to take up the mantra of "from the river to the sea" since the Palestinians have proved over and over again that they are not trustworthy. They have no interest in a real peace. And now that Israel is not backing down, they are whining to the world. Well there is a very simple solution. Get the Palestinians to lay down their arms to save their civilians. Hamas will not be forgiven. They will be prosecuted for war crimes and suffer the consequences but the civilians can choose peace.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Strangely enough, this just popped up on my radar. It is essentially the same summary of events since WWI that I have posted multiple times. All of it is verifiable.

Here's one that goes further back in history

More

This is an opinion from a Lebanese woman.

 

[Pat Hartman]

This one will break your heart. If you have any feeling at all, it will leave you sobbing. But Israel stopping the war is not the solution. That will allow Hamas to keep its hostages and rearm so it can inflict more pain on Israel. That helps no one but Hamas who are evil to the core.