Crossroads,

or being unduly picky with their job assignment

I once interviewed a fellow for a general tidying up and sweeping job. I placed the add through the government "Job Center" at the time thinking that it would be possible to give someone who was down on their luck a foothold hold on the job ladder.

I soon realised he had been forced to attend the interview, he was very persistent in inquiring what computer training there was and what computer work was involved.

I would not have given him the role in a hundred years but I reported him to the government agency for deliberately not accepting the job that I offered him.
 
The very foundation of America is being responsible for yourself. We take care of ourselves and our families. We donate or tithe to our churches and give generously to charities.

I can't really argue with the pure truth of that. The government's job is to defend the country conduct elections and make laws, not give stuff to the people - and Americans rank very high, if not the highest, in the world for charitable giving so that ought to cover it, if people are behaving normally.

I can vouch for that in getting to know a few other cultures, Americans are unique in that, and it's something we'rd proud of, Being generous broadly speaking.
 
I can't really argue with the pure truth of that.
But why do you think it is virtuous for the government to take money from me, at gunpoint, to give to someone they deem to be more worthy? This is morally repugnant.

I hate to harp on this but even Conservatives have bought the Socialist lie that helping people is virtuous and it is the job of the government. If you don't think it is OK for the government to take money from me at gunpoint and give it to someone they deem to be more worthy than me then you are the evil one. It is typical of their logic. Clause 1 of the sentence you agree with but not clause 2. If you argue the point that this is not the government's job, they call you names and you cave. And here we are with a welfare state that does not value my labor or yours either. They feel free to take the fruits of my labor and yours if you are also a productive member of society and sprinkle it around as if they are the good guys and it is them being generous. But they are being generous with money they steal from others. They use the same warped logic to justify open borders. I am perfectly OK with open borders - but not to a welfare state. Cancel every single welfare program and then you can open the borders.
 
There's a street in the next town with a couple of miles worth of strip malls. At the entrance to each sits a panhandler with a sign asking for money. At least 10% of the shops have help wanted signs. These people would rather beg than work.
 
Correct. There is nothing in the Constitution that says the government's job is to take care of us. In fact, just the opposite. The very foundation of America is being responsible for yourself. We take care of ourselves and our families. We donate or tithe to our churches and give generously to charities.

You are a very nice person with a big heart but it is simply not nice of you to decide that it is OK for the government to take money from me at gunpoint in order to give it to someone else they deem to be more worthy. You can run a refuge for illegal aliens. You can take in homeless people. You can give every spare penny you have to others. But, you cannot take money from me in order to make yourself feel virtuous. That is evil.

I have to confess to falling into progressive traps myself. They always sound so virtuous and good. But then I sit back and say, wait a minute, that sounds good on paper but it is impossible to implement and will be a total waste of money. All it does is transfer wealth from the generous to the greedy.
Everything you say defends a winner take all outlook. You should be happy, the Elites in the financial sector already have taken it all. They are the ones that pay for all the brainwashing you do buy into.
 
Everything you say defends a winner take all outlook.

Excuse me, but that "winner take all" outlook is ingrained in us through a hundred millennia of evolution as humans (more or less) and a few hundred more as lower creatures, where "winner take all" = "survive" and "stand back to kindly let the swarming opportunistic leeches eat the food you just killed for your family" means "extinction." How do you think Mankind got here? Through Papa Joe's social programs? Even HE isn't that old... at least I don't THINK he is. I don't think Joe is older than dirt - but I DO believe he and dirt are on a first-name basis.
 
Excuse me, but that "winner take all" outlook is ingrained in us through a hundred millennia of evolution as humans (more or less) and a few hundred more as lower creatures, where "winner take all" = "survive" and "stand back to kindly let the swarming opportunistic leeches eat the food you just killed for your family" means "extinction." How do you think Mankind got here? Through Papa Joe's social programs? Even HE isn't that old... at least I don't THINK he is. I don't think Joe is older than dirt - but I DO believe he and dirt are on a first-name basis.
were you drinking when you wrote that?
The survival of mankind has always been based on cooperation. I'm happy to have this debate, it goes along with a life time of observation.
You say things that are far outside what you normally indicate as being you you ground. Why is that, do you think?
 
The survival of mankind has always been based on cooperation.
That is the operative word. The Plymouth colony was originally set up on a socialist concept where it was share and share alike. Their original plan was doomed to failure. We don't spend anywhere near enough time in history class discussing this part of our history. We study this period very early in our education but don't go back to look at it later when we can understand why socialism failed. If we did, we would have far fewer people pushing socialism today.

Cooperation is necessary for primitive hunter gatherer societies to survive. Perhaps you'd like to live in one and give up all the comforts capitalism has given you. Otherwise Doc is right in essence. Obviously we cannot survive without cooperation with others but altruism isn't the way to survival. It is one of those things that sounds good on paper and makes you feel virtuous but no one will always put others ahead of themselves and those closest to them. Self preservation is too strong an impulse.
 
But why do you think it is virtuous for the government to take money from me, at gunpoint, to give to someone they deem to be more worthy? This is morally repugnant.

I hate to harp on this but even Conservatives have bought the Socialist lie that helping people is virtuous and it is the job of the government. If you don't think it is OK for the government to take money from me at gunpoint and give it to someone they deem to be more worthy than me then you are the evil one. It is typical of their logic. Clause 1 of the sentence you agree with but not clause 2. If you argue the point that this is not the government's job, they call you names and you cave. And here we are with a welfare state that does not value my labor or yours either. They feel free to take the fruits of my labor and yours if you are also a productive member of society and sprinkle it around as if they are the good guys and it is them being generous. But they are being generous with money they steal from others. They use the same warped logic to justify open borders. I am perfectly OK with open borders - but not to a welfare state. Cancel every single welfare program and then you can open the borders.

I'm just saying I'm OK buying into a system that has a little help for the downtrodden, but much more strictly implemented than we do today, and maybe 1/10th the size
 
That is the operative word. The Plymouth colony was originally set up on a socialist concept where it was share and share alike. Their original plan was doomed to failure. We don't spend anywhere near enough time in history class discussing this part of our history. We study this period very early in our education but don't go back to look at it later when we can understand why socialism failed. If we did, we would have far fewer people pushing socialism today.

Cooperation is necessary for primitive hunter gatherer societies to survive. Perhaps you'd like to live in one and give up all the comforts capitalism has given you. Otherwise Doc is right in essence. Obviously we cannot survive without cooperation with others but altruism isn't the way to survival. It is one of those things that sounds good on paper and makes you feel virtuous but no one will always put others ahead of themselves and those closest to them. Self preservation is too strong an impulse.

I agree with Pat. Cooperation is the main ingredient in survival when the context, which matters, is a desperate one.
Otherwise, competition is needed to really thrive - not just survive.
 
The survival of mankind has always been based on cooperation.

More precisely, it is based on the ascendancy of me and mine over you and yours. Man IS a gregarious animal. He protects himself, he protects his family, he protects his group. (That's why old people weren't sent out into the wilderness, according to the Anthropologists.)

Where there is no threat, Man can accept outsiders as long as they don't break that rule that says that visitors and old socks start to stink after several days. However, altruism was hardly EVER an element of raw survival. The concept of tribalism still rears its ugly head. (See also "divisive politics" - a new name for tribalism.)

In my little comment regarding survival and extinction, "cooperation" in neolithic times meant "hunting parties" and the hunters shared the kills. Everyone contributed. It meant "gathering parties" and everyone carried what amount they could back to the camp. It meant family units where even the kids had specific things that they had to learn to do. Because those families learned to contribute, to have each do a valuable part.

Now please review my earlier comments about "extinction" and tell me where cooperation sneaked into what you read... 'cause I didn't see it in what I wrote. If you don't understand my point, that's on you.

Oh, and DON'T make the statement that we have progressed past that point. No, we haven't, because robberies, gang violence, drug violence, and war haven't vanished from our world.

Violence is like a drug. I remember from the Star Trek (TOS) episode, "A Taste of Armageddon" where Kirk admits that even star-faring humans still have that barbarian in them... but they CAN decide that (paraphrasing), "just for today, we will not kill. We will not kill... today." That is how far we have come. The violence isn't bred out of us but we can resist the urge.

were you drinking when you wrote that?

I would say "sober as a judge" except that these days, even THAT is no longer a good comparison. How about "no alcohol of any kind since about 2012 or 2013" and no non-prescription drugs since I can remember. That even includes MJ, uppers, downers, psychedelics, and other recreational specialties that you won't always find listed in the U.S. Pharmacopeia. Even though I played music on Bourbon Street during my college days, I was only stinking drunk twice in my life, both times before graduating from college. After the second time, I knew I would never get drunk that bad again. And I didn't.

Let's take the more direct answer. I believe I was clear-headed when I wrote that, not under undue influence, and not distracted at the time. If you can't see the truth in what I said, you have taken a bit too much of the Biden lemonade.
 
I'm just saying I'm OK buying into a system that has a little help for the downtrodden, but much more strictly implemented than we do today, and maybe 1/10th the size
I'm going to keep harping on this Isaac. So, you are OK with the government taking money from me, at gunpoint because it makes you feel virtuous?

Let's go with with the ten friends having dinner together analogy. the check comes and the group votes on who pays. You don't vote because you think the check should be split either accurately or evenly. 9 vote for you. Did they effectively steal your money? The vote was "democratic".

@Isaac I am not against charity. I give both money and time. More time now that I am mostly retired and less money since my income is substantially lower and I live on savings. Should YOU be able to specify which charities I support? Who made you God? When the government takes money from me to give to someone it deems more worthy, it is theft. It is not charity. Government has no place in determining who I should give my money to. The government can't even keep the cheaters out of Medicare. They simply don't care. It isn't their money. They are sloppy and inefficient. Even if I thought the government had a place in "charity" I wouldn't want them managing anything.

I do understand that you think there should be some bottom line where "we" need to provide support and in concept, I wouldn't argue but how do you think we've gotten to where we are today? I know my position on this is pretty hard nosed. Once you give government an inch, they're taking thousands of miles and employing 10's of thousands of people to waste my money with a multitude of overlapping programs which are never audited to see if they've accomplished their goals. I'm not sure that the programs even have to specify goals. They only need to sound good and moral to take our money. Since there is no way to control a bureaucrat, I prefer to never give them the chance.

About the only government run "charity" I would go along with is for veterans. They served their country. If they're broken, chances are it was a result of their service and we owe them care.

I would be quite OK with an option group;) on a tax form with a couple of percentages where you can choose to give extra money to government run charities. That centralizes the money and should make it more efficient to manage. Or, since people may not agree to add extra money above what they have to pay, make the option group apply to the taxes collected. You get to choose .5 or 1 or 2% of your tax money to apply to charitable programs.
 
I agree with Pat. Cooperation is the main ingredient in survival when the context, which matters, is a desperate one.
Otherwise, competition is needed to really thrive - not just survive.
Are you an employee?
 
After the second time, I knew I would never get drunk that bad again. And I didn't.
It took me twice too;) Once on whisky. To this day I can't drink it and the second time on wine - cheap white wine. That hangover lasted three days. every time I ate or drank anything my head started spinning again. And I never touch white wine.
 
It took me twice too;) Once on whisky. To this day I can't drink it and the second time on wine - cheap white wine. That hangover lasted three days. every time I ate or drank anything my head started spinning again. And I never touch white wine.

I can't drink white wine at all - because I can taste the vinegar. I'm what is called a hyper-taster, meaning I have sensitive taste buds, and natural fermentation is a TWO-step process which starts by converting plant sugars to alcohol, but step two is to continue the fermentation to acetic acid (vinegar). It is hard to stop the fermentation in the middle, so even in the good wines there WILL be some vinegar - particularly in the older white wines. Rose wines are also a hard NO for me. Sometimes a red has been bearable. When I used to drink socially, it was a gin-based Tom Collins, or it was scotch and soda, but that time is long gone. The last beer I had was 15 to 20 years ago.

For me, the problem is a wonky liver. It is healing slowly but alcohol would reverse the progress I've made. Thanks, but no thanks!
 
I'm going to keep harping on this Isaac. So, you are OK with the government taking money from me, at gunpoint because it makes you feel virtuous?
As far to the right as it gets. Beyond this point we fall off the flat earth.
 
I agree with Pat. Cooperation is the main ingredient in survival when the context, which matters, is a desperate one.
Otherwise, competition is needed to really thrive - not just survive.
As you well know, that is an extreme oversimplification. You don't actually agree with Pat. Y'all differ on many points. You might be surprised to find out we (you and I) agree more.
In the world of inventing and engineering, there is always this scale, on one 0 on the other infinity. so you do that math and you decide where on the line is the optimal solution. Of course there are other lines, that cross this one, especially in complex scenarios.

For the most part people's beliefs on various subject are somewhere along those lines. it is rare to encounter people that actually cling to one end or the other, you are not one of those people. Furthermore, if you take a single uncomplicated topic, no matter how complex, people will be more aligned on that issue than they will when you discuss the general problems.

I am guilty of pot stirring on this forum, I admit it. But how can i resist, it's like thumping a violin string in an echo chamber.
 
Beyond this point we fall off the flat earth.

I believe the geometry of the Earth has been established as not being flat. Aristarchus of Samos (310-230 BCE) decided that issue 2200 years ago.
 

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