Has NASA found (potentially) extraterrestrial life?

[Adam Caramon]

This one lost me a bit. Unless I misunderstood it, your original question wasn't whether or not someone wanted to be in pain, but why they wanted to avoid dying if they were sure they were going to a far, far better place. There are plenty of ways of dying that involve little or no pain (and I'm not talking exclusively about suicide, since I know religions often frown on that). By responding as if you'd asked about pain, the question was neatly sidestepped.

I only get to control the question I ask, not the question that is answered.

In these debates I try to restrain myself between demanding answers and understanding that some people do not want to answer certain questions.

But if turns out we are all alone, then Christianity is on the home straight as the favourite

Why? And as an FYI, this is the type of statements from you that I was talking about when I said you supported Christianity. Even if you're an adherent of "something is out there", or simply don't want to be labeled as a Christian because of all that entails, you, based on your statements, are a wavering Christian.

Kryst51 is quite solid in her belief, and unafraid to admit to it. It is apart of her. I don't agree with it, but I understand it and I daresay I have a certain measure of respect for her because of it.

You, on the other hand, seem to obfuscate a lot. I'm not trying to say that you have to pick a label and apply it to yourself (cause that'd be terrible, labels in general are usually bad), but if you want to debate other people's outlooks on life, you should offer some details on your own.

Neither of us is dealing with odds, since we both know the statements to be undeniably true.

I knew I wasn't the only one confused with his usage of the term

 

[Alc]

If there are millions of them wouldn't you expect some to be extremely advanced?

Possibly, yes. However, saying "the odds would be very high that some of it is extremely advances compared to us" is based on no evidence at all.

Someone has to be at the top of the heap - why not us? The fact that we can't do everything we can imagine doesn't automatically increase the odds that somebody else can.

And if there are not millions of them I would think we are alone.

So there couldn't be 237,432 other civilisations out there because.....?

 

[ChipperT]

So there couldn't be 237,432 other civilisations out there because.....?

It's not a prime number and EVERYBODY knows god only deals with prime numbers.

 

[Alc]

It's not a prime number and EVERYBODY knows god only deals with prime numbers.

He didn't mean that, Lord.

(Shut up, heretic! You missed your chance for salvation, don't blow it for the rest of us. )

 

[Mike375]

Why? And as an FYI, this is the type of statements from you that I was talking about when I said you supported Christianity. Even if you're an adherent of "something is out there", or simply don't want to be labeled as a Christian because of all that entails, you, based on your statements, are a wavering Christian.

I said Christianity was a favourite if we are alone and with a

You, on the other hand, seem to obfuscate a lot. I'm not trying to say that you have to pick a label and apply it to yourself (cause that'd be terrible, labels in general are usually bad), but if you want to debate other people's outlooks on life, you should offer some details on your own.

I guess unlike most of you I am not sure and so vary and especially as there are different possibilities.

I have no preference as to what the answer will be. In other words I am not defending a cause. My current views are simply what seems logical to me at the moment.

But I have said several times I am not a believer in formal religions or religion in general. In fact I think on this thread I have a couple of times tried to get you to break away from the atheisth vs Christianity and move back much further in time.

 

[Mike375]

Possibly, yes. However, saying "the odds would be very high that some of it is extremely advances compared to us" is based on no evidence at all.

Someone has to be at the top of the heap - why not us? The fact that we can't do everything we can imagine doesn't automatically increase the odds that somebody else can.

For the same reason it is extremely unlikely you will hold next weeks winning lotto ticket.

So there couldn't be 237,432 other civilisations out there because.....?

I think it will be millions and millions or we are alone for a simple reason. If this is a God deal then we are alone. But if not then has to be millions and millions out there. Several postings ago Glaxiom said odds favoured 3000 earths with intelligent life per galaxy and there is an infinte number of galaxies and and Infinity X Anything = infinite.

 

[tinyevil777]

I agree with Mike.

You'd have to be pretty narrow minded to totally disregard any possibility of other life.

 

[Lightwave]

But if turns out we are all alone, then Christianity is on the home straight as the favourite

Actually I would back Mike375 up on his logic there. (still think its unlikely)

One of the central principles of astron0my is the cosmological principle. Ie that we are at a location which is not particularly unusual. That should we be located somewhere else in the universe we would very much see similar things and experience the same physical laws. Even more we are not particularly unusual. Just as most of us have a father and mother those we meet have fathers and mothers.

One of the main arguments for there being other intelligent life.

The idea that we are alone in such a large universe is mathematically such a small possibility that it would suggest that there is something special going on should it not be the case.

Maybe home straight is too strong but certainly improves special as a reason.

I take your point about more or less though.

If you don't know the starting point ranking is very much a loose guess.

 

[Alc]

For the same reason it is extremely unlikely you will hold next weeks winning lotto ticket.

But I have as much chance as anyone else, assuming I buy one.

 

[Alc]

I agree with Mike.

You'd have to be pretty narrow minded to totally disregard any possibility of other life.

Okay....? Who's saying that there is no possibility?

 

[Adam Caramon]

I said Christianity was a favourite if we are alone and with a

I know you did, but it is clear to me from the collection of your posts that you are connected to Christianity at some level. Maybe it is the most likely to you even though you are not wed to it. Or maybe it is your default "other" option. But there is definitely a connection.

I guess unlike most of you I am not sure and so vary and especially as there are different possibilities.

That places you quite neatly into the same boat as most of us. We don't know. We just don't believe the current dominant religion of the times has the correct answer.

I have no preference as to what the answer will be. In other words I am not defending a cause. My current views are simply what seems logical to me at the moment.

You might not defend a cause openly, but you're quick to defend Christians when they seem to be under attack or their beliefs questioned. There's nothing wrong with that, it might even be down right chivalrous of you. But it is there.

Also, you do attack other's views. Again, nothing wrong with that. Defending your views helps you learn more about them, and through the counter-attack, learn about others. All of this leads to learning, acceptance, etc. All great things.

It could be just me, it just seems that most of us are standing on known platforms, or at least assumed platforms. You are not, which doesn't give anyone a chance to try to pick apart your platform (thus encouraging the learning as I mentioned above).

But I have said several times I am not a believer in formal religions or religion in general. In fact I think on this thread I have a couple of times tried to get you to break away from the atheisth vs Christianity and move back much further in time.

You have indeed. Truth be told, I'm not an atheist. I don't use that label. In the past I've called myself a non-believer that cacuses with atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc. Essentially all of the non-believer categories.

But, had I come out each time you called me an atheist and said "I never said that!" I'd just be avoiding the issue. Which is what, to me, it seems that you're doing by saying you believe in "something is out there".

Again, this is not meant as a "pick a side" rant. But at least give us more information on your side or platform so we can see why you believe some of the things you believe and not believe others.

 

[Mike375]

But I have as much chance as anyone else, assuming I buy one.

Correct.

But the odds of you being the winner is remote in the extreme.

Think of it this way. Let's pretend you are standing to one side of the universe and one of those supernaturaturals asks you to pick a planet and if you pick the right one you get the big prize.

But in addition it is hard to believe with millions and millions of these othe rplanets with intelligent life that our level of advancement is as far as things have got. After all we don't even know how the whole thing works. We don't even have the ability to travel beyond the moon, well lets say with similar budget/political will as 1969/Apollo we could make Mars.

 

[Mike375]

I know you did, but it is clear to me from the collection of your posts that you are connected to Christianity at some level. Maybe it is the most likely to you even though you are not wed to it. Or maybe it is your default "other" option. But there is definitely a connection.

Connection is that it is the one to use for example of formal religion. On another forum it would be Islam. It is also the formal religion we know the most about.

That places you quite neatly into the same boat as most of us. We don't know. We just don't believe the current dominant religion of the times has the correct answer.

I thought you were atheist?

You might not defend a cause openly, but you're quick to defend Christians when they seem to be under attack or their beliefs questioned. There's nothing wrong with that, it might even be down right chivalrous of you. But it is there.

Examples?

Also, you do attack other's views.

That is what the thread is about

It could be just me, it just seems that most of us are standing on known platforms, or at least assumed platforms. You are not, which doesn't give anyone a chance to try to pick apart your platform (thus encouraging the learning as I mentioned above).

Again, this is not meant as a "pick a side" rant. But at least give us more information on your side or platform so we can see why you believe some of the things you believe and not believe others

I do envy people who are definite but I lack the knowledge and faith to be a definiite. My position sways about even over short period of times.

But in terms of the general theme I think the answer to the universe is not available to us via natrual laws as they would not have existed pre Big Bang. Glaxiom will die wondering So the start off is supernatural.

I believe there is some sort of spiritual force above us. It could be very advanced life forms as I was just posting and for practical purposes they are god like.

I am 100% convinced that some type of telepathy operates and at different levels for different individuals and for many this will make them think "religion" is repsonsible for some things happening.

I also think there is a chance that Bible has some truth but the God is limited and also limited to maybe this solar system.

 

[tinyevil777]

i think people should be allowed to believe whatever THEY want to believe. If it brings that person inner peace and happiness, then who are we to question it?

 

[Rabbie]

i think people should be allowed to believe whatever THEY want to believe. If it brings that person inner peace and happiness, then who are we to question it?

I quite agree. However there are a lot of people who want to force their (religious) views on other people by means of laws etc. As I see it the problem is not with individuals who should be free to believe whatever they want - not necessarily be allowed to do things just because they say their religion demands it. The real problem is when organised religion (including atheist states) enforces their beliefs on everybody.

 

[ChipperT]

For the same reason it is extremely unlikely you will hold next weeks winning lotto ticket.



I think it will be millions and millions or we are alone for a simple reason. If this is a God deal then we are alone. But if not then has to be millions and millions out there. Several postings ago Glaxiom said odds favoured 3000 earths with intelligent life per galaxy and there is an infinte number of galaxies and and Infinity X Anything = infinite.

Just a small comment. You stated that "there is an infinite number of galaxies". I am pretty sure that there are a finite number of galaxies, even if we don't know the exact number. The "Big Bang" could not have spawned an infinite number. So, it would be more accurate, cosmologically to say "an extremely large number of galaxies".

 

[Mike375]

Just a small comment. You stated that "there is an infinite number of galaxies". I am pretty sure that there are a finite number of galaxies, even if we don't know the exact number. The "Big Bang" could not have spawned an infinite number. So, it would be more accurate, cosmologically to say "an extremely large number of galaxies".

Glaxiom said that there were an infinite number of stars. And I asked him if that should mean an infinite number of galaxies and he said yes.

 

[Rabbie]

Just a small comment. You stated that "there is an infinite number of galaxies". I am pretty sure that there are a finite number of galaxies, even if we don't know the exact number. The "Big Bang" could not have spawned an infinite number. So, it would be more accurate, cosmologically to say "an extremely large number of galaxies".

I heard an interesting program on Radio the other day when they were discussing this subject. The main point made by one speaker was that if there really was an infinite number of galaxies then there would be an infinite number of earthlike planets with people just lik us on them. There would also be an infinite number of earthlike planets with diferent life forms. He then said he found this so mindblowing tht he found it easier to accept the idea of a finite universe with a large number of galaxies than the infinite alternative

 

[ChipperT]

I heard an interesting program on Radio the other day when they were discussing this subject. The main point made by one speaker was that if there really was an infinite number of galaxies then there would be an infinite number of earthlike planets with people just lik us on them. There would also be an infinite number of earthlike planets with diferent life forms. He then said he found this so mindblowing tht he found it easier to accept the idea of a finite universe with a large number of galaxies than the infinite alternative

Since we "know" the age of the universe and we are approaching the ability to see that distance and since the speed of expansion of the universe since the explosion of the monopole is governed bythe speed of light, there cannot be an infinite number of galaxies, ergo no infinite number of stars either.

Now, there could be an infinite number of universes, conjecturally. We do not have the ability at this point to even make a guess at that.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Connection is that it is the one to use for example of formal religion. On another forum it would be Islam. It is also the formal religion we know the most about.

But I don't believe you would be quick to defend Muslims. That's my take, my inference based on your posts. Your actions place you in the Christian camp, even if only slightly.

I thought you were atheist?

I don't use that label, but others may of me. I don't believe that there is an all powerful deity. I don't believe in magic or divine miracle, etc. I don't believe the bible is accurate.

I believe that religion is generally divisionary, and causes a lot more problems than the ones it tries to remedy. I believe religion is contrary to education, in that it teaches people to be illogical. I believe that if we, as a society, minimize the impact of religion, especially on our laws, then we will be better off for it.

If that makes others call me an atheist, then they may. I don't call myself one because people have different definitions of the word; different perceptions.

Examples?

Off the top of my head, you compared a religious poster with a rocket scientist who was a born again evangelical when that person's beliefs were called into question. Essentially saying that if a rocket scientist believed in Christianity, then why not someone else? I'm sure there are other examples as well.

I do envy people who are definite but I lack the knowledge and faith to be a definiite. My position sways about even over short period of times.

My own belief is that there are no definites. The people who claim to be still have a small shred of doubt in them, it may be very small, but its there.

I am 100% convinced that some type of telepathy operates and at different levels for different individuals and for many this will make them think "religion" is repsonsible for some things happening.

What gives you such conviction?

I also think there is a chance that Bible has some truth but the God is limited and also limited to maybe this solar system.

So, is the God one of the supernaturals that you mentioned above? Are there a bunch of supernaturals with capabilities beyond our own, some of them having inspired various religions here on Earth based on human's interactions with them?