How many genders are there? How many should there be?

[NauticalGent]

 

[DickyP]

The whole basis of this problem this misuse of the English language.

The have always been 3 genders - masculine, feminine and neuter. This is because gender is a language construct. It has, however, been hijacked to mean sex: a meaning which only appeared for the first time in the 8th Edition of the Oxford dictionary in 1992 where is was described at the end of the entry as 'also a euphemism for sex'.

I work to the theory if I'm talking about sex I say sex! If people want to play dress-up that's OK by me, but they should also respect my beliefs rather than trying to legislate to force me to lie.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Or perhaps it is the evolution of the English language to recognize that it was being used incorrectly to describe something that was not as simple as it first appeared?

There are people in this world who cannot accept that - for the most part - gay people didn't make a choice about their preferences. They had a realization. If you pay attention to those who "come out of the closet" you find that they knew from some particular moment in their youth that they were very different. You also often find that they tried to hide that difference for a while. But eventually they find that a purely cursory evaluation of their biological sex does not correspond to the way they feel. Their gender preference is a reflection of their reality, not a choice.

I don't disagree with the idea that when you talk about sex, you should say what you mean. We should make a distinction between your sex and your gender orientation. If the plumbing doesn't match the wiring, it is a condition of birth and not your fault. But the less tolerant members of our society place strictures on non-conformists that make it painful (primarily emotional but sometimes physical too) to be different.

 

[DickyP]

Being gay/homosexual/whatever label you wish to give it is a completely different matter to the pretence you aren't the sex you are: the former is virtually universally accepted in most western countries anyway. By all means live as another sex but don't expect realists to pretend that you are what you aren't. I must admit that it seems somewhat ridiculous to be asked to pretend someone is a different sex just because they dress differently, when they are as convincing as my grandson in his onesie was at pretending he was Mickey Mouse.

The real problem, however, with misusing the word 'gender' is that you get to the situation where foreign language teachers are told the mustn't use the word! A bit like telling maths teachers they must teach equations.

 

[AccessBlaster]

There are two genders XX,XY. Everything else is based on feelings and emotions. Until science comes up with XX.2 or XY.001 were stuck with just two.

 

[Pat Hartman]

When I look in the mirror, the person looking back is not me. So, I get it. But, I don't expect YOU to see who I think I am. You can only see my outward manifestation. This is where the breakdown occurs and where the mental illness comes to the fore. If a man dresses in women's clothing and styles his hair as a woman would and wears the kind of makeup many women wear, most people would refer to "him" automatically as she/her and not make a scene out of general politeness. But, when your outward manifestation says "dude" and you are lurking in the ladies changing room, you are a pervert and need to be called out as such.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

There are two genders XX,XY. Everything else is based on feelings and emotions. Until science comes up with XX.2 or XY.001 were stuck with just two.

No. There are two biological sexes - XX and XY (not counting the occasional rare XXY cases or other chromosomal variants). If you want to use gender, you must take into account that the wiring and plumbing might not match and thus you cannot trust the XX/XY configuration.

I actually agree in part with DickyP's statement: "The whole basis of this problem this misuse of the English language." Though I don't think it is the WHOLE problem, but it IS a contributor.

 

[conception_native_0123]

out of ALL this maneuvering, I say there are 2 genders and no more talk needs to be done about it. male and female. I bet I'll get some blowblack for this one!

 

[AccessBlaster]

No. There are two biological sexes - XX and XY (not counting the occasional rare XXY cases or other chromosomal variants). If you want to use gender, you must take into account that the wiring and plumbing might not match and thus you cannot trust the XX/XY configuration.

I actually agree in part with DickyP's statement: "The whole basis of this problem this misuse of the English language." Though I don't think it is the WHOLE problem, but it IS a contributor.

The first sentence in the Oxford dictionary is sex, after that, it gets more nuanced.

 

[GaP42]

Are you guys aware that even with the typical XX/XY genotypes there are cases where phenotypically an XY genotype may present as a prepubescent female (or indeterminate at birth) only to become male phenotypically as they enter puberty (male hormone production kicks up)? Genetics is one thing, the expression of genes another. How would you engage with the child? As female I expect? When they pass through puberty they transition to male. Imagine the challenges and acceptance needed to support their development. Biology is not straightforward and often the norms are social constructs of our making. Genetics provides one viewpoint from a strictly biological perspective. When you get to "gender" you are then referring to the social constructs applied over the top of the genetic framework. The range of expression/identity of sexuality is like a space-continuum not a single line (one where most of us find ourselves on). The societal rules that apply to GENDER are what you are arguing about. We all can voice an opinion, I hope one that is sympathetic to diverse situations.

 

[AccessBlaster]

If you have to go to the 3rd decimal of a fraction to make your point, you may need to rethink your logic. Yes there are cases that fall outside of the norm, but for all intent and purposes there are only two.

 

[GaP42]

If you have to go to the 3rd decimal of a fraction to make your point, you may need to rethink your logic. Yes there are cases that fall outside of the norm, but for all intent and purposes there are only two.

Well it is actually to the second decimal point - as reported at birth (ie indeterminate sex) .. but that is not the point. The topic was Gender, not Sex .. although that may have been an error/not the intent in the OP. Gender identity is not the same as sex. You seem to have problems with that - and see things as black and white. Some societies actually recognise non-binary genders, suggesting the frequency is sufficiently high to cause it to be recognised.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Gender identity is not the same as sex. You seem to have problems with that - and see things as black and white.

No, I don't have a problem with sex vs gender. I take issue with redefining language to fit a narrow interpretation.

For example: "Men can get pregnant" It MIGHT be possible under some freakish Dr. Frankenstein scenario, but highly unlikely without a uterus transplant. But it gets argued endlessly because people want to believe that trans equates to women, it doesn't.

Language and science have been co-opted by politics.

 

[Jon]

No, I don't have a problem with sex vs gender. I take issue with redefining language to fit a narrow interpretation.

For example: "Men can get pregnant" It MIGHT be possible under some freakish Dr. Frankenstein scenario, but highly unlikely without a uterus transplant. But it gets argued endlessly because people want to believe that trans equates to women, it doesn't.

Language and science have been co-opted by politics.

I agree, I think it was a mistake to hijack the word gender. It would have avoided many of these problems if they invented a new word. Then, both the Left and the Right could discuss the issue without being caught in language that conflates biological reality with ideological viewpoints.

 

[GaP42]

You mean words like "Woke" Words are hijacked all the time... language changes -new meanings are assigned and language evolves. The word gender does not, as far as I see it, carry with it the implication that "trans equates to women" - that implication is a different agenda which has not been generally resolved. The use of gender-neutral pronouns, as a request of an individual, may should be respected. However I do think a level of tolerance is needed on both sides.

 

[Jon]

Words are hijacked all the time... language changes -new meanings are assigned and language evolves.

Indeed it does, by liberals. They want to change the meanings so they can ram their ideology down your throat. It starts with the far left who disproportionately push the agenda. The only way they can argue their ideology is by changing the meanings of long established words. Then what was always X is now Y. What was always true is no longer true, but false. Day is now night, and night is now day. That is the way I see it.

 

[GaP42]

Shakespeare was such a disruptive influence then

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The only way they can argue their ideology is by changing the meanings of long established words.

Both sides do that. For instance, calling a fetus a baby so that an abortion can be characterized as killing a baby.

 

[AccessBlaster]

... Words are hijacked all the time... language changes -new meanings are assigned and language evolves.

Global warming vs climate change is another example of hijacking. When the predictions failed to come true the left panicked and came up with a new tactic called "change". That way they could be right on the issue regardless of temperature.

The hijacking of language is a slow creep that always need to be examined and challenged regardless of party.

 

[Jon]

Both sides do that. For instance, calling a fetus a baby so that an abortion can be characterized as killing a baby.

A fully grown baby at 9 months old, 1 second from birth is also called a fetus. If you kill that fetus, you can argue all you want that it isn't killing a baby. But I would call that murder. To my mind, the abortion case is altogether different from the man/woman argument because for me, sex is binary because it is about chromosomes. Contrastingly, a fetus/baby distinction is physically on a continuum, even if semantically it is not.