Mask vs Corona virus. Wear or Not.

[Jon]

ORIGINAL: Masks are ineffective in protecting the wearer.

But Fauci said this:

“And we wanted to make sure that the people namely, the health care workers, who were brave enough to put themselves in a harm way, to take care of people who you know were infected with the coronavirus and the danger of them getting infected.”

Source: https://techstartups.com/2020/06/17...sks-at-the-beginning-of-coronavirus-pandemic/

He wanted to avoid the medical staff getting infected, in his own words. So my question is still, if masks are ineffective, why did they want the ineffective masks for the medics?

Edit: I will give you a helping hand. They all lied to avoid a shortage. And this leads to the conclusion that it is naive to believe you should always trust the medical experts.

 

[Jon]

In his actual quote, he didn't admit he "lied." He stated that they were concerned about the lack of supplies and already "knew" it wasn't very effective at protecting the wearer. The misleading is in that they didn't take into consideration that it could help protect others from the wearer. It again goes back to what we learn as we go. It wasn't a tactical misleading, it was one with a lack of understanding.

He doesn't need to admit it, because he has been caught in a lie. You cannot advise the public not to wear masks because they are ineffective and at the same time say we need the ineffective masks for the medics. I am not sure what part of that you aren't getting!!

You still haven't answered any of my questions either. What CURRENT advice shouldn't we listen to? Debating about past statements doesn't make the current guidance the best guidance to follow to not only protect the public, but also keep the economy open.

Regarding current advice, I have already answered that. See this post: https://www.access-programmers.co.u...-virus-wear-or-not.314456/page-3#post-1727454

And here: https://www.access-programmers.co.u...-virus-wear-or-not.314456/page-3#post-1727465

 

[Jon]

When you go to your doctor, you ask for advice. But my recent experience has suggested you cannot rely on the doctors advice. You need to do your own research too. Doctors are overstretched, they have resource limits and may omit information since they have to manage a budget. They will say, "Take this rather excellent treatment." Yet they fail to tell you about the cure because it costs more than they are willing to allocate.

 

[Jon]

@Vassago Just to say, whatever has happened regarding advice in the past or whatever we agree or disagree on, I agree with you that we need to wear a mask. Just so you know!

 

[Vassago]

I know, which is why I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish.

So you concede then that the current advice of Fauci and the other health advisors should be followed?

 

[Vassago]

You didn't answer the question. You responded with another question.

 

[Jon]

So you concede then that the current advice of Fauci and the other health advisors should be followed?

It is not a concession. I was advocating for mask usage before Fauci was. Just read the Covid thread for my posts. And which health advisors, because they don't all agree?

I know, which is why I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish.

Just being precise on what happened, and when you disagreed with me why you were wrong from my perspective.

 

[Jon]

You didn't answer the question. You responded with another question.

But that was my answer. Which medics do you want to believe? Converted for you, medical advice differs so you cannot say believe the medics. You need to say which medics you want to believe.

 

[Jon]

Interesting post by someone about being lied to regarding mask usage: https://capx.co/the-masks-fiasco-shows-the-dangers-of-a-noble-lie/

In the UK, I was telling all my friends that the advice given was bad advice, having done my own research on the topic and parsing the various sentences of medical reports that were used to bolster the governments argument against using masks. But by looking more deeply, these research results suggested to me you SHOULD be wearing masks! Obviously, everybody thought I was potty, just like they thought I was potty by going in self-imposed lockdown 1 week before the official lockdown, and for my projections over how the numbers will grow without going into immediate lockdown, which the UK government didn't do.

The UK governments advice back in March was saying that you can go to outside sporting events, no problem. My advice was it is mad. Their advice was so flawed that it may partially account for my the UK has one of the highest death rates in the world for Covid.

 

[Jon]

This:

Although the above is regarding the US, the same thing happened in the UK. I lost trust in what the government was telling us, perhaps for the first time. I never thought they would lie so blatantly and also why the contradictory statements of "ineffective masks, save for the medics" was not identified. It is almost like some kind of mass hypnosis that blanketed the UK, where if an expert or someone in authority tells you something, we then cannot see the obvious contradiction within the same sentence. Plenty of studies that show how authority can blind people and coerce them into doing things they would not otherwise normally do.

 

[Isaac]

When you go to your doctor, you ask for advice. But my recent experience has suggested you cannot rely on the doctors advice. You need to do your own research too. Doctors are overstretched, they have resource limits and may omit information since they have to manage a budget. They will say, "Take this rather excellent treatment." Yet they fail to tell you about the cure because it costs more than they are willing to allocate.

EXACTLY.

We all appreciate going to the doctor and getting medical advice.
I.E., "This medicine may save your life because your blood pressure is high. But here is the cost and here are all the side effects of this solution which will affect your quality of life for as long as you take it".

... Implied: 'Now go home and make your own decision about what is best for you'.

What I agree with is that since masks are probably helpful, and they're not hurting anyone, let's just wear them.
What I don't agree with is the sweeping, over-generalized, "do whatever the scientists tell us to do" (ON ALL ISSUES) type of talk. This is nonsense--the scientists can only speak to the effect of their advice on COVID--NOT on all the other consequences of the decision.

Every morning I wake up, I have tens of thousands of implicit goals in life. (Don't die of covid, don't die of colon cancer that you never got checked for because nonessential checkups were prohibited, don't die of suicide after losing your job and being evicted, don't abuse your children because everyone is locked up angry together--and 100,000 more). Not dying of covid is only one of those goals. Period.

 

[Jon]

A couple of years ago, my mother fractured her back. She ended up in a local hospital where they only have nurses and doctors who visit periodically. She lost about 2 stone in weight over one month, so she was down to about 6 stone. She was constantly nauseous and so could hardly eat anything. She was sleeping for 20 hours a day, with very low quality of life. The nurses in the ward were even saying they are amazed she is still going (i.e. alive). The doctor was giving her anti-nausea medication but none of it seemed to work. He seemed puzzled over what to do.

So, I decided to do some research. She was on morphine. I Googled morphine. Within 10 minutes I found that 30% of people get bad nausea from morphine, as a side-effect. I wrote a letter to the doctor saying that while she came in with a broken back, her weight has become critical and that this should be the new focus. Can we take her off morphine?

The doctor came in 3 days later, took her off morphine and within 24 hours, she was eating full meals again and awake for most of the day. In fact, because she had early dementia, they would give her lunch and I would go in a couple of hours later and say I've brought you lunch. She would have a sandwich, crisps, chocolate, coke. Lots of calories for someone so small. Within a week she gained 10lbs.

I caught the doctor in there during that week and he said, "You were right."

But later I thought to myself, how come a whole hospital full of nurses and her own doctor didn't know what to do? It took someone with no medical background to provide advice that undoubtedly saved my mothers life. And it didn't take long to find the probable answer either. So, I did a bit of research and discovered that my doctor may have 1 to 2 thousand patients. I am surprised he even recognised me! Overworked, stretched too thin, lots of competing prioriies and essentially you cannot rely on them.

This is my experience and my advice to you all. Do your own research. Wikipedia could save your life!

Edit: My father ended up in the same hospital due to a possible heart attack, but there were no beds in the main hospital. So he had to stay there for a week until they found a bed at the main hospital. Well, they seemed to think that the last day he was there, he might have had a cardiac event. So he was expedited to the main hospital. I do despair at how it is run on a shoestring.

 

[Isaac]

A couple of years ago, my mother fractured her back. She ended up in a local hospital where they only have nurses and doctors who visit periodically. She lost about 2 stone in weight over one month, so she was down to about 6 stone. She was constantly nauseous and so could hardly eat anything. She was sleeping for 20 hours a day, with very low quality of life. The nurses in the ward were even saying they are amazed she is still going (i.e. alive). The doctor was giving her anti-nausea medication but none of it seemed to work. He seemed puzzled over what to do.

So, I decided to do some research. She was on morphine. I Googled morphine. Within 10 minutes I found that 30% of people get bad nausea from morphine, as a side-effect. I wrote a letter to the doctor saying that while she came in with a broken back, her weight has become critical and that this should be the new focus. Can we take her off morphine?

The doctor came in 3 days later, took her off morphine and within 24 hours, she was eating full meals again and awake for most of the day. In fact, because she had early dementia, they would give her lunch and I would go in a couple of hours later and say I've brought you lunch. She would have a sandwich, crisps, chocolate, coke. Lots of calories for someone so small. Within a week she gained 10lbs.

I caught the doctor in there during that week and he said, "You were right."

But later I thought to myself, how come a whole hospital full of nurses and her own doctor didn't know what to do? It took someone with no medical background to provide advice that undoubtedly saved my mothers life. And it didn't take long to find the probable answer either. So, I did a bit of research and discovered that my doctor may have 1 to 2 thousand patients. I am surprised he even recognised me! Overworked, stretched too thin, lots of competing prioriies and essentially you cannot rely on them.

This is my experience and my advice to you all. Do your own research. Wikipedia could save your life!

Edit: My father ended up in the same hospital due to a possible heart attack, but there were no beds in the main hospital. So he had to stay there for a week until they found a bed at the main hospital. Well, they seemed to think that the last day he was there, he might have had a cardiac event. So he was expedited to the main hospital. I do despair at how it is run on a shoestring.

Thanks for sharing that. A lot of information out there to be discovered, thankful for the internet.

 

[Isaac]

 

[Jon]

@Isaac, perhaps that is why you and I believe you should not put all your trust in what experts say. If you look to science, Einstein was in disagreement with many of his fellow physicists, and he did not believe in Quantum Mechanics. "God does not play dice with nature." Or something similar.

Experts can disagree on many fundamentals. Just consider the origins of the universe. You cannot get more fundamental than that! Do we have a bubble-verse? Was it always there? Did God create it? Are we all in a simulation instead? Does it expand and then contract, like a pulsing heart (but with a very slow heart-beat!)?

Throw in a bit of fake news and none of us know what to do anymore!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Your quote from Einstein came from his friendly dispute with Alan Oppenheimer of the Manhattan Project. Alan was a statistical quantum mechanic type who believed in random events whereas Albert was cast from a more classical mold and was never able to fully accept the implications of his own discovery (Nobel prize, 1921, for explaining the photo-electric effect.)

 

[Steve R.]

Wearing a mask does not hurt (if you are healthy), but the supposed benefit of wearing a (consumer quality) mask considering the nature of the Covid-19 virus is way overblown. (Washing your hands and avoiding the touching of your eyes, ears, nose, and open sores is a must). The gullible public is getting whipped-sawed on this issue by the fear mongers.

 

[neuroman9999]

the only answer to the original question asked in this thread is:

it depends how paranoid your governmental authorities are.

that's the only thing you can count on. there are hundreds of public places in Iowa City, and every place has a different policy and accompanying ""laxness"" of their enforcement of it. some care, some don't. some can get their liquor license taken away, some can't. some can't comprehend the rules, some can. some ignore the governor completely, some listen. some are just too drunk to even know there IS a virus.

 

[Sun_Force]

The advice we should not follow from the medical experts was the advice that masks are futile,

The medical experts you're talking about, are US medical experts. I know and have seen some countries' medical experts insisted on wearing mask from day one. And each one of them are in a better situation than US, UK. Unfortunately everything in US (and maybe in UK. I'm not sure about that) is effected by politic and you can't trust any organization. But the situation differs in other countries. The science stands ahead and politic is effected by what medical experts suggest.

The problem with people like @Isaac (if I have not misunderstood his logic) who say if 5% goes through then it's not safe, because there's a million particle around and a tiny particle is enough to get infected, is that they don't realize we're talking statics. They don't realize that if masks cut down 95% of virus, it means that they cut down 95% PROBABILITY of getting infected. It's all about math. Even a normal mask has been proved to cut down 45% of Covid virus.
Thinking nation wide and mathematically (statically), if everybody uses a normal mask, 45% of infections can be prevented (daily).

Doesn't it prove why countries like China, Japan, Korea have the most populated and most density cities, yet the rate of death and infection is low?
Main cities in Europe and US, Madrid, London, Los, New York, Paris are much less crowded than Asian cities. But look at the results.

Take Madrid as an example. There are only 3.4 million people in Madrid, It is 1/10th of Tokyo, 1/8th of Shanghai, 1/3d of Seoul. But the infection goes up to 58 times of Seoul, 10 times higher than Tokyo.
And don't forget these countries were shut down for a short time.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

How do I tell if a mask is 95% or 45% ?