Mobile phones (Cell phones in US speak) and the 'Why don't you use the app?'

[DickyP]

Just to put things in perspective in the. UK in 2023 196,000 were s stolen worth £48.20M. That 22 an hour.

 

[DickyP]

That's exactly me

But can you recover from your backup store of everything that was on it? If so you are not the person on I was talking about.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I think the second case is a constructive way of exchanging idea. If I see a case like this, I'm more than happy to be engaged. But to be honest, most discussions, is far from this, and tend to be the first one.

That means that you are not willing to change your point of view either. It's OK. You're not voting in our elections so your political opinions don't count

In case of this thread, I really am sure no one will change his/her idea about their phones. So, engaging in this thread, is somehow wasting each other's time. So I really didn't want to waste both sides time on a non-ending discussion.

The people who do not trust financial information to their phones will probably not change their minds but if some on the other side open their minds and listen to the reasons, they may be more reticent in the future with what they use their phones for.

Personally The IDEA of a cell phone or embedded chips sound like such a good idea. I used to think how wonderful the future would be with this kind of technology working for us. Never having to worry about not having money in my pocket or forgetting my keys or having to stand at a check out line seems like freedom. I'm a huge science fiction fan and all the Star Treks fascinated me with the cultures and technology. I can't wait for the transporter to be invented. So many things I've read about have come to fruition. But some of them are utterly terrifying. Like the flat screen TVs everywhere broadcasting Big Brother's propaganda and the Newspeak and perpetual changing of history of history. This ominous novel of a future history is now our reality.

Probably the horror of 1984 becoming a reality is what has made me distrustful of government in general. You are very trusting of your government. I think that is a cultural thing that comes from respect and reverence of your elders. We see people as equals so we don't automatically revere our leaders. We look at them more critically. And we find them sadly lacking. The medical industrial complex was the last one that had anything close to general positive approval but the lies they told us over COVID has destroyed that reverence.

When Canada froze the accounts of the protesting truckers, they showed us just what an evil government can do to subjugate its population. Don't think yours is above this. Ours certainly isn't.

 

[AngelSpeaks]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. Trust whom? Someone robs my phone. I login to my google account and lock my phone with a long new passcode. Trust whom? Google? I just want the thieves not being able to access the contents of my phone.

Trust the ap. Any ap can be hacked. The US just banned a Russian based computer security program.

 

[Pat Hartman]

My other trust issue is with software developers. It is the people who write the software that also need to understand the bill of rights. They cannot deliberately or accidently allow violations to the bill of rights as they do today.

When I was working in the mainframe world, many of my applications dealt with money and so usually as we were approaching the end of the design phase, I would get the team together for a brainstorming session to see if we could find a way to steal or divert money some how. Now, granted, this is a whole different problem in a mainframe situation where there are few people with sufficient access to cause mischief than it is with software out in the wild. But, I still felt it was important to at least think about it. I do not believe that current developers have the same feeling of fiduciary responsibility that I always had. This is one of the things I harp on ad nauseum as you all have probably noticed.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Trust the ap. Any ap can be hacked. The US just banned a Russian based computer security program.

Yes, Kaspersky got the politically motivated axe-job. The worst part is that I have NEVER had any trouble with them in the past. Once I got the package tuned over 10 years ago, it was truly "set it and forget it." (OK, they got a LITTLE pushy on touting their VPN.) But I am not pushing them now. Other packages are good, too, and I have moved away from them. For my USA colleagues, it becomes a moot point whether I link to their web site, but for other countries that would violate the forum's spam policy so no links.

Heck, along the lines of "any app can be hacked"...

A few years after I retired, the Navy (and the Pentagon in general) admitted to a huge problem with Orion by Solar Winds (a Texas-based software company). A Russian hack created a back-door pathway that allowed stealing of data from a military personnel installation. They spoofed an update as a pathway to get in. Fortunately, my assigned system couldn't be hacked quite so easily because there was no Orion client for OpenVMS/Itanium. However, their approach potentially affected a LOT of Windows and UNIX-family machines. Some stories are still available online if you look for Solar Winds & Orion.

 

[KitaYama]

That means that you are not willing to change your point of view either.

Unfortunately you didn't get the message. You even didn't bother to think.

I didn't say I'm better than others. I said when two sides don't listen to each other and just want to prove their own sides, nothing comes out of the discussion. It's a waste of time for both.
As I explained, most people here are against phones, I can't live without them. (I have two).
No one listens to me. I don't listen to others.
So engaging in this type of discussion is useless. That's wasting both my and other's time. That's why I didn't want to be engaged.
Until there was a security concern. I only explained how a phone security works.

Where did I even mention I'm willing to change my point, that you have to throw it into my face?
I really don't understand why you always try to prove "You are wrong too". I, myself, admitted that I don't want to change my point too and I'm wrong.
You may want to keep your cool a little bit before attacking back with a "YOU ARE WRONG TOO"
Does it make you feel good coming out of a fight as a winner?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I believe that KitaYama has encountered a cultural difference. I'm not sure I can completely explain it, but perhaps my point will get across.

The people I have known who grew up in Japan tend to be more conciliatory, more "conflict-avoiding" than USA citizens. While they certainly DO strive to achieve, they do so less openly. USA citizens from our colonial days initially were rugged individualists who fought for everything they had and our modern competitive economic system preserves some of that competitive spirit. As a result, we often look at things through "competitive-colored glasses" and this might be what KitaYama is seeing.

Note that I am not attempting to excuse either side for anything, because if this IS a cultural difference, there is nothing to excuse. I am observing what I believe to be a cultural difference popping up here. KitaYama, if I have overstepped in making this observation, forgive me for an honest but clumsy attempt at understanding.

 

[DickyP]

Unfortunately you didn't get the message. You even didn't bother to think.

I didn't say I'm better than others. I said when two sides don't listen to each other and just want to prove their own sides, nothing comes out of the discussion. It's a waste of time for both.
As I explained, most people here are against phones, I can't live without them. (I have two).
No one listens to me. I don't listen to others.
So engaging in this type of discussion is useless. That's wasting both my and other's time. That's why I didn't want to be engaged.
Until there was a security concern. I only explained how a phone security works.

Where did I even mention I'm willing to change my point, that you have to throw it into my face?
I really don't understand why you always try to prove "You are wrong too". I, myself, admitted that I don't want to change my point too and I'm wrong.
You may want to keep your cool a little bit before attacking back with a "YOU ARE WRONG TOO"
Does it make you feel good coming out of a fight as a winner?

I have enjoyed this thread and the various views aired - I agree with a lot of this post but with a significant BUT!

The discussion even with fixed positions is not worthless - it's a discussion where we can evaluate the other side of the argument.

In passing I think your throwaway "most people here are against phones" is wrong - almost without exception their point like mine has been that they are great in their place. They have outlined their dislikes and why.

Lastly "Does it make you feel good coming out of a fight as a winner?" - Yes, of course it does - it's called human nature.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Yes, Kaspersky got the politically motivated axe-job.

I found the article.

It's Official: US Bans Kaspersky Antivirus Software Over Russian Ties

Although the ban blocks Kaspersky from selling in the US, consumers and businesses in the country can still use the company's antivirus products without facing penalties.

www.pcmag.com

@KitaYama I am not attacking you. I am sorry that you have taken my comments that way. Peace please.

 

[KitaYama]

I am not attacking you.

I'm sorry too. Didn't mean to sound so harsh. I need to study English more.
My sincere apology to all, specially to you.

 

[KitaYama]

In passing I think your throwaway "most people here are against phones" is wrong

Ok. Let's step back for a moment. Seems that I have some misunderstanding here.
You don't like to be available 24/7. You don't like to receive text. You don't use instant messaging. There's a good possibility you don't even use social media apps. You don't trust their security because it could be unclocked in few minutes, hence you don't use it for financial (banking, credit card, stock,.....). You don't read your mails. And I bet you don't use it as a game consol because it's not 26" wide.

I don't say you're wrong. But I don't understand why you need a phone in first place. If you don't want to be available 24/7, isn't a land line enough? (Genuine question)

Here's mine.
I not only manage all my finance via apps, I also receive text from our fridge to buy milk on my back home. I can turn on/off our air-conditioner., I can start recording a TV program, end a recording, I can turn off the lights if I've forgotten to switch them off. I also can answer the intercom if someone's ringing the bell and my wife's not home. I can start recording the intercom or watch the recorded videos or talk to the one at the door. I can talk through my phone with our dog, or feed him. I can use it to remote control my PC.
And more important than anything else, I don't need cash in my pocket. I pay everything cashless and I don't even know the recent color of our bills. My medical history can be accessed via a cloud through my phone if I have any accident and need a surgery, Any doctor in any hospital can see the drugs I take for my heart. In 6 months from now, my phone will be my driving license too. I don't need to carry anything except my phone.
There are a lot more, but I stop here.

Back to my question : If you don't expect a phone to do this for you, why you pay additional fees everymonth?

 

[AngelSpeaks]

Kita, I have a cellphone because of emergencies. I have a special needs daughter and when she's at a program, they need to be able to get ahold of me. Just last night in a span of ten minutes, I received two calls. Her doctors have my cell, mine have landline. In the US, you can't seem to go anywhere without being asked for your cellphone. Restaurants want it because instead of giving you a pager to let you know your table is ready, they want to text you. Stores ask you for it during checkout and the clerk gives you a strange look when you refuse to give it up. The more you give out your number, the more spam calls you receive. My husband's spam call/text ratio to mine is probably ten to one.

I will use it for the internet, I'm using it right now. I don't use it as a camera, I have several excellent Japanese real digital cameras for that purpose.

Since people practically wear their cells all day, they don't bother or care about the time they call or text you. I utilize my do not disturb feature to control this.

Last year I retired from tax preparation and clients seem to think they can just hold their documents in their hands, take an out of focus jpeg of them and text them to me. I have to use Photoshop to resize and print them or one image would take multiple sheets of paper.

 

[KitaYama]

In the US, you can't seem to go anywhere without being asked for your cellphone. Restaurants want it because instead of giving you a pager to let you know your table is ready, they want to text you. Stores ask you for it during checkout and the clerk gives you a strange look when you refuse to give it up.

It's the most strange thing I've ever heard in my life. Here, asking for someone's number is very rude. You don't ask even for your friend's number. Unless she/he gives it to you, you never ask. After being together for a while, "How about exchanging our numbers. This is mine." is more common than asking stright for his/her number. You always first give your number, before asking for someone's. And someone who you don't even know? You can not and will never ask someone's number who you don't know closely. Never.

It's also assumed to be rude to call someone directly without any prior warning. (except during business hours for business purposes).
The norm is to send an instant message and say something like "I can call you in an hour. Are you in a situation to answer?"
Calling someone striaght without a message, is only between the members of a family. You and your husband and your kids.
Even between couples, messaging is more common.
Unless, it's really an emergency, you start with a message. You don't want to disturb anyone except if it's a real "There's no other option" case.

Texting to a phone number is a "Never do it". Texting to a phone is only for security reasons, One time passwords etc.
You never text to a phone number. You send a message. It's mostly because
The sender can see if the message has been read or not. It's your right to know if the receiver is aware you need him. And its his right to answer or wait for a free time.

Forcing people to give away their numbers is crazy.

 

[DickyP]

Ok. Let's step back for a moment. Seems that I have some misunderstanding here.
You don't like to be available 24/7. You don't like to receive text. You don't use instant messaging. There's a good possibility you don't even use social media apps. You don't trust their security because it could be unclocked in few minutes, hence you don't use it for financial (banking, credit card, stock,.....). You don't read your mails. And I bet you don't use it as a game consol because it's not 26" wide.

I don't say you're wrong. But I don't understand why you need a phone in first place. If you don't want to be available 24/7, isn't a land line enough? (Genuine question)

Here's mine.
I not only manage all my finance via apps, I also receive text from our fridge to buy milk on my back home. I can turn on/off our air-conditioner., I can start recording a TV program, end a recording, I can turn off the lights if I've forgotten to switch them off. I also can answer the intercom if someone's ringing the bell and my wife's not home. I can start recording the intercom or watch the recorded videos or talk to the one at the door. I can talk through my phone with our dog, or feed him. I can use it to remote control my PC.
And more important than anything else, I don't need cash in my pocket. I pay everything cashless and I don't even know the recent color of our bills. My medical history can be accessed via a cloud through my phone if I have any accident and need a surgery, Any doctor in any hospital can see the drugs I take for my heart. In 6 months from now, my phone will be my driving license too. I don't need to carry anything except my phone.
There are a lot more, but I stop here.

Back to my question : If you don't expect a phone to do this for you, why you pay additional fees everymonth?

Generally I accept all the things you describe as being of of value to you but they aren't to me.

A random few comments from my point of view.

I use a mobile phone because it is mobile and a phone! I expect above all things for my phone to function as phone.
I have never stated I don't like or use text.
I don't depend on a landline alone because it's not mobile and I do leave the house!! (and in UK land lines as we know them they are disappearing).
My comment about e-mails was not because I don't read them on my phone (when necessary) but because other people who purport to read them actually don't.
- incidentally this applies to other things like instant messaging where people only ever appear to read the first 2 lines.
What additional fees are you talking about? £8 a month is not much to have the convenience of a mobile phone. The price of 2 beers.
I like using cash - and I like to help local small traders who get charged extortionate fees for accepting cashless payments by their banks etc.
I don't have a dog. (not necessarily a valid comment as I unfortunately suffer from extreme cynophobia having been badly injured by a dog as a small child!)
I don't actually understand what you mean by the colour of you bills.
I like to talk to people face to face, not hide away behind a screen. Even using software where you can see the other person is a form of hiding - of course I do it occasionally, but it is a very poor substitute to real human interaction.
Why ever do I need my driving license with me all the time? I understand one might in a police state but I live in UK.
I do play occasionally simple games on my phone, but I don't use it as console (assuming you mean the same by the word console as me) as I generally don't enjoy video games.
Medical records on my phone are not a facility available in the UK directly, and anyway a doctor in a hospital just has to refer to my NHS records.
And you still haven't explained why you need your accounts with you all the time. Detailed reference and manipulation of such things should sensibly be done in an office like environment. Casual queries such as account balances are, to me unnecessary, - I know my balances.

Basically it seems to me you have appear to have given up on real life, for an electronic facsimile.

 

[Cotswold]

It is the blind trust that people give these devices plus the scanning and tap they use to pay for drinks and meals that amazes me.
Often, or never asking for a receipt. A well known national pub and eatery (it cannot be called a restaurant) chain in the UK added £3.50 to a bill that my wife paid on her card. As with anything not for cash we always demand the receipt. Otherwise you cannot check the bank. The teller in the bank actually admitted that she never checks her bank account for what she'd paid when out when she buys drinks or a snack.

The company refunded of course, plus some. I wanted to take it to trading standards and the police but my wife didn't want to be involved. Though unbelievably, the not so reputable PLC, at first they claimed the computer system must have accidentally added a charge from a different till..........what? You have a system that can decide to shift money from till to till? Whilst a locked transaction is being processed it can grab data from another locked till? Does it also shift charges from branch to branch through the network every now and then as well?

There is no doubt in my mind that adding extra amounts to a charge are custom and practice in hospitality. Always get a receipt, unless you just don't care about being stolen from. Since that little episode we always pay cash in that type of business. If they don't take cash we walk out.

 

[KitaYama]

I don't actually understand what you mean by the colour of you bills.

bill : a printed or written statement of the money
They did a complete re-make of our bills a while back. Because I don't use cash, I haven't seen them yet. (their colors are changed)

Basically it seems to me you have appear to have given up on real life, for an electronic facsimile.

Yeah, it seems so. It only goes back to what real life is.

 

[KitaYama]

It is the blind trust that people give these devices plus the scanning and tap they use to pay for drinks and meals that amazes me.
Often, or never asking for a receipt. A well known national pub and eatery (it cannot be called a restaurant) chain in the UK added £3.50 to a bill that my wife paid on her card. As with anything not for cash we always demand the receipt. Otherwise you cannot check the bank. The teller in the bank actually admitted that she never checks her bank account for what she'd paid when out when she buys drinks or a snack.

The company refunded of course, plus some. I wanted to take it to trading standards and the police but my wife didn't want to be involved. Though unbelievably, the not so reputable PLC, at first they claimed the computer system must have accidentally added a charge from a different till..........what? You have a system that can decide to shift money from till to till? Whilst a locked transaction is being processed it can grab data from another locked till? Does it also shift charges from branch to branch through the network every now and then as well?

There is no doubt in my mind that adding extra amounts to a charge are custom and practice in hospitality. Always get a receipt, unless you just don't care about being stolen from. Since that little episode we always pay cash in that type of business. If they don't take cash we walk out.

There are a lot of new words for me and I couldn't understand it all.
To make it clear, in UK, if you pay cashless, you don't receive a receipt?

 

[AngelSpeaks]

It's the most strange thing I've ever heard in my life. Here, asking for someone's number is very rude. You don't ask even for your friend's number. Unless she/he gives it to you, you never ask. After being together for a while, "How about exchanging our numbers. This is mine." is more common than asking stright for his/her number. You always first give your number, before asking for someone's. And someone who you don't even know? You can not and will never ask someone's number who you don't know closely. Never.

It's also assumed to be rude to call someone directly without any prior warning. (except during business hours for business purposes).
The norm is to send an instant message and say something like "I can call you in an hour. Are you in a situation to answer?"
Calling someone striaght without a message, is only between the members of a family. You and your husband and your kids.
Even between couples, messaging is more common.
Unless, it's really an emergency, you start with a message. You don't want to disturb anyone except if it's a real "There's no other option" case.

Texting to a phone number is a "Never do it". Texting to a phone is only for security reasons, One time passwords etc.
You never text to a phone number. You send a message. It's mostly because
The sender can see if the message has been read or not. It's your right to know if the receiver is aware you need him. And its his right to answer or wait for a free time.

Forcing people to give away their numbers is crazy.

Kita, sometimes I think people should be required to take courtesy lessons from the Japanese. Two very important people in my life were born and raised in Japan and they are real treasures. One is married to my nephew.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I don't say you're wrong. But I don't understand why you need a phone in first place. If you don't want to be available 24/7, isn't a land line enough?

That's a fair question. Here's your answer.

Due to age and various medical issues, my wife and I need to be able to summon help in case of an emergency. We aren't nearly on our death beds yet, but senior citizens can be a bit more fragile than younger folks. And we ARE seniors. Both of us are over 75. We no longer qualify as "young" (except maybe "young at heart.")

Our primary purpose in having a cell phone is therefore to make any necessary outgoing calls when not at home. We also use the phone's internet features while out if we want to look up business hours or location for places to shop or eat. But there are other reasons that, when added together, justify having a cell phone.

In a hurricane-prone area, sometimes the internet is down. Our home phone is actually VOIP over our internet service, not a true "land line." We have a home generator so we have power (and had it when Hurricane Francine knocked out our power for a while.) We can charge the phones, but until the internet comes up, the phones become our backup communication. We use the phones. We just don't allow them to become an integral and vital part of our daily lives.

By keeping the land line, we deflect a lot of phone calls to a recorder, and the spammers usually don't bother to leave messages on it. I estimate that I have gotten as many as 10 spam phone calls a day on some weekends, maybe half that on weekdays. But when deflected to a recorder, the spam call becomes just a mechanical AI voice talking to a mechanical dumb voice - and when we get home to see who called, the "DELETE MESSAGE" key works just fine. If we made ourselves available 24/7, the advertising calls would drive us crazy. Particularly those folks who give us a typical USA name with an accent straight from the Middle East. How many people from that part of the world are named Chad?