Should Abortion be Allowed?

Do you think abortion should be allowed


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Rabbie

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Should abortion be legal? No at all? Only if the mother-to-be's health is at risk? If the mother-to-be was a victim of ra**? What do you think?

Is it reasonable in a world with a rapidly growing population to deny women the right to Abortin?
 
Hand grenade time .....


might be better to also ask what background the posters answer come from (Roman Catholic/CofE- buddahist..etc) - to see if there is a basis from one sect...


Me- Cof E (age 42)
and I support abortion as a right -however am open to have the date when it is not allowed lowered ..
also I am one for the death penalty - but only as a means of thinning the herd.
gbp
 
Hand grenade time .....


might be better to also ask what background the posters answer come from (Roman Catholic/CofE- buddahist..etc) - to see if there is a basis from one sect...
Didn't know how to do that without making the poll too complicated. Hopefully people will post their background when they comment:)
Me- Cof E (age 42)
and I support abortion as a right -however am open to have the date when it is not allowed lowered ..
also I am one for the death penalty - but only as a means of thinning the herd.
gbp
My lack of religion is common knowledge. I would allow abortion only in the first 3 months and despite what Gemma-the-husky may think of me I do oppose the death penalty if only because it is impossible to reverse it if you find out a mistake has been made.
 
Southern Baptist here (age 51):
I find it a difficult question. In principle, I think it is wrong, but I do not believe that we should condemn those who practice (patients or doctors/clinics). I am definitely opposed to the government paying for it, especially if it is used for birth control. I'm not sure about other circumstances (you just never know till you've been there).

I am just as opposed (or possibly more opposed to) damaging the property of or persons who engage in abortion. Killing "abortion doctors" is just wrong and I don't want to associate myself with people who do.

I believe people should control their loins and it would help alleviate a lot of the problems.
 
But the youth of today no longer have any control:mad:

I totally agree. That is part of my dilemma. Once a person has tasted what sex has to offer, control can become a secondary (tertiary?) consideration. And some people don't learn control even with a court order.
 
Pretty touchy subject.

I have two opinions on this.

Personal opinion:

I would be against the idea of abortion. For one thing, it's incongruent to claim women's rights when babies are people all the same. I'm painfully aware of the ever-lasting debate over whether a fetus become a person and so forth, but for my personal purposes, I consider mitosis to be sufficient condition to be a different person and thus should have their rights just like anyone else.

Furthermore, it seems to me that voluntary sterilization is a proper solution if one desires not to have children. Abortion just seems messy way to handle this. Now this does not of course cover all contingencies and I don't intend that to be the complete solution. I'll be honest as well - I haven't quite made up my mind as what to think about extreme circumstances such as ra** leading to unplanned pregnancy and am very sympathetic for the hardships this causes. 9 months may be too much, especially to recover from a trauma. For medical emergency, it's a bit more clear cut - I'll trust doctor's counsel. Nonetheless, I am fully aware that such position is not fully consistent, which is partially why it bothers me to the point that I've yet to make up my mind properly on those complicated scenarios.

Now that's my personal opinon.. Now to my second opinion which deals more with the legal framework:

I do not think regulation or legislation is the right answer here. We cannot legislate morality. To ask government to intervene in what is essentially a moral question is complete foolishness. Government's business is to enable us to live as a society, and definitely not to decree how we should live our lives.

Furthermore, it is my belief that any kind of legislation on morality usually create more problems than it solves. Red tapes & restrictions holds back doctors from providing the best medical care, create black & gray markets, and like it or not, any restrictions or endorsements is in effect a endorsement of the same code of morality, which I do believe goes against the spirit of US Constitution's First Amendment, freedom of religion.

For this reason, I am inclined to think that government should have never had any say in this matters and left up to the people to do as they think fit. We have to come to the terms that ultimately, moral issues are also personal decisions and therefore does us no good to try and coerce anybody else to conform to a given set of morals.
 
I wholeheartedly 100% oppose abortion, it is against my personal and religious beliefs.
But, it is not my issue to tackle, if a woman feels that it is the right thing to do then that is between her and who she understands as God or her higher power and personal morals.
I am saddened by the thought of persons who find this a difficult decision to make, for them it may be a scar they will have to carry in their heart thoughts and spirit for the rest of their lives. It is equally unfortunate for those who really see abortion as just a procedure in the same light and consideration as the inconvenience of a visit to the dentist, however, you can not teach humility to some people who have different morals.


BTW - polls are a waste of time as there are 6 persons who have posted to this thread, yet only 4 of us have bothered to post to the poll.
 
BTW - polls are a waste of time as there are 6 persons who have posted to this thread, yet only 4 of us have bothered to post to the poll.
My apologies if I have put the wrong options on the poll. One lives and learns
 
As they say, you can please some of the people some of the time;)
 
Talk about your "can of worms" questions! I think the debate should center on what to me is the essential question: "when does life begin?" I would support abortion before that point, not after. A woman's "right to choose" is not a viable stand-alone argument in my view. A woman shouldn't have the right to take a life before birth any more than she would after.

That said, I don't have an answer to that essential question. Is it the moment sperm fertilizes egg? I tend to think not. Is it not until the moment of birth? I tend to think not then either. Babies not carried to term can still be perfectly viable, so I don't see how a baby delivered at 9 months is a life, but the same baby at 8 1/2 months is not.

The problem with this debate is that I'm not sure we even have the capacity to determine when life begins. Scientists, theologians and philosophers have struggled with the question of "what is life" for as long as man has been on earth. I doubt we'll solve it here! :p
 
But the youth of today no longer have any control:mad:

I think you would be in that group genius boy.

My personal feeling is that this should never be allowed. But then again, you have the question of what happens if a woman is raped? That is always tough, as not all women want kids.

I would simply say though, that if people are stupid enough to do something they shouldn't, then so be it, but don't punish another life because of it.
 
I would simply say though, that if people are stupid enough to do something they shouldn't, then so be it, but don't punish another life because of it.

And I would use the exact same rationale to say that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion. If a woman wants an abortion and you punish her by making her have the kid, what kind of quality of life is that kid going to have? Would you want to be the baby your mom was forced to have? I know I wouldn't.

As to when life begins, I think it begins when a baby can survive outside of the womb.
 
And I would use the exact same rationale to say that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion. If a woman wants an abortion and you punish her by making her have the kid, what kind of quality of life is that kid going to have? Would you want to be the baby your mom was forced to have? I know I wouldn't.

I have to agree, but remember that adoption is usually the option in such case. Or if one doesn't want an accident, there's always sterilization. Birth control is certainly an option but like everything else, there's a risk and one has to be prepared to accept the risks.

So while I disagree with the notion of abortion and my set of morality tells me that it makes no sense, I know better than try and impose my set of morality on others. It's really unfair, yes, but as you said, forcing it only begrudges people. Persuading them of other alternatives is far more preferable than forcing them.

As to when life begins, I think it begins when a baby can survive outside of the womb.

That's still problematic, unfortunately. Take preemie for example. Should a baby that was born three months too early and thus required a incubator to mature and eventually grow into a healthy adult (I have a relative who is a living proof of this) be disqualified by that criteria? I think not.

This is part of reason of why I am inclined to want to define life at mitosis because I reasoned that by going to a low level definition (e.g. molecular level) this deals better with more wide range of scenarios than some arbitrary definitions. Many people talk about pregnancy as having trimesters, but that is really arbitrary definition based on major milestones which could be reached at slightly different timeframes. It seems to me that by defining life at mitosis when the DNA has changed so it's no longer mother's or father's DNA but now something else is much less arbitrary and subjective.
 
This is a tremendous can of worms any day that you open it and in any country where you try to open it.

On the one hand, I know that a woman in the situation of need to have an abortion is already in trouble (and I don't mean that in the euphemistic sense used 40+ years ago.) On the other hand, I'll never have to make that decision. I didn't have to in the past and now my wife and I are too old. For us personally, it is a moot point. In the USA, we have a few factors to consider. I'll try to enumerate them clearly enough to then use them as the basis for my position.

1. (Legal) The US Constitution is vague regarding the beginnings of life. However, it makes one (and ONLY one) reference in passing. Based on our constitution, civil rights apply to naturalized or natural-born citizens. There is no mention of potential life or developing life. Rights accrue at birth.

This is a back door, to be sure, but it sets a reference point of birth. Obviously, naturalized citizens must take an oath, which means they must already be born and in fact old enough to be considered to have the capacity to take an oath. So though it is at best an implication, the US constitution implies that life begins at birth.

2. (Religious) The US constitution and its amendments expressly allow people to expect the right to freely exercise the tenets of their religion. Religions vary on when life begins, from conception to quickening to severing the umbilicus to the first breath. (Yes, that wide a range.) As much as I study this, I can only come to the conclusion that setting an early cut-off point disenfranchises the woman who is practicing her religious beliefs and is a member of the crowd that believes "the breath is the life." Setting too early a cutoff point tells that woman that her religion is inferior. But the USA disallows any legal decisions to occur that make such an implied statement.

3. (Legal/Religious) In cases where the child, already born, must face a life-saving treatment but the parents' religion doesn't believe in medicine, courts have ruled that the parents have the legal right to deny such treatment. Insane though it is, I see that as proof that the parents have the right to decide to allow the life of that child to end even after birth, contravening the rights granted by the US constitution. Why, then, does everyone get MORE bent out of shape if the woman decides to stop the pregnancy before that situation could happen?

4. (Pragmatic) Before the US Roe v. Wade decision, abortions occurred in back alleys where young girls were maimed, killed, sterilized, and generally treated to an uncertain fate. Often, both woman and fetus died. By allowing abortions in a clinical environment, you save one of those lives. But you can't stop abortions. They've been around since the time of the Pharoahs. The Hippocratic Oath refers to abortifactants. Seems like we haven't gotten rid of abortions yet, after well over 3000 years of recorded history to the times of the Pharoahs.

5. (Pragmatic) If the prospective mother so badly doesn't want that fetus to become a child, how badly will that child be treated in life later? Based on typical outcomes, the child would grow up unloved, in poverty, or in an overloaded foster care system. The child would become a ward of the state, potentially unloved, exploited, and/or abused. People say, "Put the child up for adoption." Probably would be good except that the number of children far outnumber the number of prospective adoptive parents. I can't justify this number because I don't remember where I saw it, but I think I recall that the ratio is on the order of 8 to 10 abandoned children to 1 prospective adopter. So most kids put into the care of the state are going to foster care or orphanages.

6. (Legal/Pragmatic) The pregnant woman facing abortion is, more often than not, facing it alone. The sperm donor has already fled the scene (and probably bragged about yet another conquest.) Leaving the woman "holding the bag." She has no effective method to coerce his support because he can just leave the state or go into hiding. (See #7 point below.) This asymmetry of responsibility places the woman in an untenable condition where, no matter what is really the right answer, she is unlikely to make it due to the familial, societal, economic, and biological pressures placed on her.

7. (Personal experience) In the two cases where I know all of the details, the sperm donor who cut and ran totally abandoned the mothers, both of whom shouldered a terrible burden but eventually accepted the birth of the child. The children (both girls) suffered very difficult childhoods and grew up unable to make good choices for the men in their lives. One is my stepdaughter, whom I've tried to love as a good father. But it isn't always easy.

8. (Idiocy) In the USA, many schools are forbidden to use the words "birth" and "control" in the same sentence for fear that the religious extremists will storm the school and hang the principal. In effigy if s/he's lucky. Post-pubescent but uneducated children in "ripening" bodies can be described in simple terms - prime candidates for parenthood.

9. (Idiocy/Pragmatism) When someone says, "Just say 'NO' to underage sex" they are talking from a part of their brains that is detached from reality. Kids TUNE OUT the adults most of the time on a good day, so when an adult starts a lecture on the perils of sex, the kids hear BLAH BLAH BLAH. Adolescent celibacy is like jumbo shrimp and military intelligence. An oxymoron.

10. (Religious) Every Christian I've ever met claims the soul cannot be destroyed. If the fetus is terminated and had no soul (yet), then nothing much happened. But even if the fetus had a soul, termination if its host body couldn't destroy it. So what's the reason for the furor?

Having pointed out these relevant factors, I think abortion should be legal, but stronger legal and societal tools are needed to make the sperm donors take responsibility for their actions. I would prefer that we take steps to prevent the pregnancy before abortion ever becomes the issue.

Teach birth control and make sperm donors get serious punishment for starting an unwanted life. We would punish them for ending a life improperly, wouldn't we? I don't think any woman should have to bear a child she doesn't want, particularly under tough economic circumstances and sperm-donor abandonment.

I wish it were not this way, for I regret the need for abortion. And that is the dilemma. We hate the event but cannot eliminate the need. And eventually this is why I place myself in the category of saying that it is a woman's right. If it is a sperm donor's right to "love 'em and leave 'em" then it should be a woman's right to put that liaison out of her life and her body completely.

Stated another way: If we cannot prevent the condition, why do we then want to step in and compound the problem?

Rather obviously, I've studied this question at a deep philosophical level and still cannot come up with an answer that I like. It's that pragmatic streak in me, I guess, that says it doesn't matter how theoretically perfect your answer might be if it doesn't solve the problem.
 
I can't disagree with such a well thought out position. Just a couple of "interesting" questions:

1. (Legal) The US Constitution is vague regarding the beginnings of life. However, it makes one (and ONLY one) reference in passing. Based on our constitution, civil rights apply to naturalized or natural-born citizens. There is no mention of potential life or developing life. Rights accrue at birth.

Just curious, does that mean that you can put a vacuum hose in a non-citizen's skull cap and suck their brain out? Surely that's not what the framer's meant? If their language was so ambiguous and clearly doesn't fit, how do we know they intended to define life? By the way, this argument is what makes the nastiest form of abortion legal (I think it's called "late term abortion").

2. (Religious) The US constitution and its amendments expressly allow people to expect the right to freely exercise the tenets of their religion. Religions vary on when life begins, from conception to quickening to severing the umbilicus to the first breath. (Yes, that wide a range.) As much as I study this, I can only come to the conclusion that setting an early cut-off point disenfranchises the woman who is practicing her religious beliefs and is a member of the crowd that believes "the breath is the life." Setting too early a cutoff point tells that woman that her religion is inferior. But the USA disallows any legal decisions to occur that make such an implied statement.

The breath is the life crowd have to face a similar argument: If I get in an industrial accident and burn my lungs up, temporarily stopping my breathing (for potentially minutes, or longer), again skull cap/vacuum? Even if I'm going to die anyway? Not OK. I'm clearly alive...though at the moment not a very productive member of society. Breathing on your own or via an apparatus does not define life though not doing so could quickly mean death. I would think a similar argument could be made for blood coursing through your veins.

I don't even pretend to have any answers. I do know I don't like 2 things related to this topic for which I will not withhold personal judgment:
1. The government paying for people to undo their foolish mistakes. Where's the personal accountability? I like Banana's proposed solution: give them a 1 way sterilization if they can't afford an abortion, can't keep their legs crossed, and can't deal with a child.
2. When people destroy property or people illegally kill another person. No, it's not OK to shoot abortion doctors or bomb clinics. I have a very low opinion of anyone who does, especially in the name of God. God told me it's NOT ok to do that.
 
When does life begin?

Here is my grandson to be at 20 weeks, would you like to be the one that kills him.

Brian

BTW I clicked option 2
 

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I have declined to cast a vote on this subject since as a man I will never face the torment and gut-wrenching involved in the decision to have the child or not.

Until 1940, it was legal for a woman to have an abortion until the child had moved on its own (referred to at the time as "quickened"). A group of religious persons felt abortion was wrong at anytime and pressured the US Congress and Canadian Parliament to pass laws making abortion illegal at anytime. This was the birth of the back alley butchers. Women whose lives were at risk or were the victims of ra** were out of luck.

When does life begin? I feel at birth. At birth the child is capable of survival outside the womb. Even though the child is moving beforehand, is it capable of survival outside the womb? In most cases it is not.

My main objection to the way abortion is currently handled is that it is being used as a form of retro-active birth control. Nowadays you can buy condoms almost everywhere and with the STDs around, they should be used as a matter of course. The primary function of sex is to reproduce. This is whats going to happen if you don't take the necessary safeguards.
 
When does life begin?

Here is my grandson to be at 20 weeks, would you like to be the one that kills him.

Brian

BTW I clicked option 2
I can never figure out those pics, is he kicking yet?;)
 

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