The Qur'an

[aziz rasul]

If an external entity did not exist then that would suggest that the universe came into being from nothing or that it created itself. As both of these are paradoxes, this suggests to me at least that there has to be an external Creator\Designer that must have brought our universe into being.

In Islam, we believe there is an external entity or universal Creator, who we call God, who has no gender, who is outside His creation e.g. the universe(s) and has certain attributes e.g.,

No Beginning
Uncreated
Self-Sufficient
Independent
All Powerful,
All Knowing
etc.

99 of God's attributes are given in the Qur'an. He has no partners or associates e.g., is not begotten nor does He beget, no children, does not resemble His creation, etc.

He (Ibrahim) said: Nay! your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Who brought them into existence, and I am of those who bear witness to this
Qur'an 21:56

35. Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?
36. Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Rather, they are not certain.
Qur'an 52:35-36

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Muslims are not in denial, we have the Qur'an to guide and enlighten us and ultimately give us success in the Hereafter.

It is normally the Christians who use the phrase "God works in mysterious ways ...", not Muslims.

Science may change as new evidences come to light. However, there are certain scientific facts have a higher chance of being correct as Uncle Gizmo says in #96. After all, The_Doc_Man, you did not disagree with post #60 I gave.

This topic has been asked and answered in the "Are you an atheist" thread. I disregarded that discussion then and I disregard it now.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

this suggests to me at least that there has to be an external Creator\Designer that must have brought our universe into being.

And it ALSO immediately leads to the question "From where did THAT external being originate?" Whoever it was, He HAD to be outside of space and time... but where IS that place? Then, when you answer that question by naming a place, the SAME QUESTION applies to the next iteration. And the next, ... and so on, ad nauseam. Religion places the artificial "stopper" in the drain by saying an eternal being did it. But if the UNIVERSE really is eternal (not just the creator), then your creation myths fly apart and you have one hellacious time reconciling your scripture (or, for that matter, the Christian and Jewish scriptures that are part of the Qur'an) with an eternal universe. Even though you had no trouble swallowing an eternal creator.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

If an external entity did not exist then that would suggest that the universe came into being from nothing or that it created itself. As both of these are paradoxes,

And yet the problem is trivially simple. The act of universe creation requires a divine will. But what if the universe ALWAYS existed and therefore was never created at some particular time? You don't need a creator or a creation event in that case.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I won't have a practical answer until I die, at which time it will be too late for the answer to do any good.

My guess is your name was written in the lambs book along time ago, and there's nothing you can do about it, except rebel like the rest of us.

 

[ebs17]

Muslims are not in denial, we have the Qur'an to guide and enlighten us and ultimately give us success in the Hereafter.

If Muslims have the same intellectual leadership and enlightenment, then you are equating all Muslims, including the Taliban, the Iranian Mullahs, the Salafists, the Islamic State, Hamas.
Shiites kill Sunites and vice versa, based on whose leadership.
Women should cover themselves and disguise themselves so that men are not seduced and do not attack these women as sexual objects.
Why doesn't the scriptures or a major spiritual leader say that women are equal beings and creations and of course they shouldn't be attacked?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Why doesn't the scriptures or a major spiritual leader say that women are equal beings and creations and of course they shouldn't be attacked?

Because the current way keeps the women subservient. AND because this behavior is written in the Qur'an, they have the added pressure of being forced to submit to their men because of submission to Allah and thus becoming (approximately) 1/4 of a man in some issues. Because it takes 4 women to accuse a man of ra**. Because a man can have 4 wives. Because women must limit their education. Other little tidbits like that.

Women should cover themselves and disguise themselves so that men are not seduced and do not attack these women as sexual objects.

AND (Allah forbid...) Islamic men need to learn to keep it in their pants and not yield to their base animalistic urges just because a woman shows about 4 cm of skin.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Ra** is not a crime of passion. It is a crime of hatred. Men who ra** women do so because they hate women not because they love them.

 

[aziz rasul]

This topic has been asked and answered in the "Are you an atheist" thread. I disregarded that discussion then and I disregard it now.

Confirmation of denial then.

And if they deny you, [O Muhammad] - already were messengers denied before you. And to Allaah are returned [all] matters.
Qur’an 35:4

16. And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein: We verily created man and We know what his soul whispereth to him, and We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
17. When the two receivers receive, seated on the right and on the left.
18. Man does not utter any word except that with him is an observer prepared [to record].
19. And the intoxication of death will bring the truth; that is what you were trying to avoid.
20. And the Horn will be blown. That is the Day of [carrying out] the threat.
21. And every soul will come, with it a driver and a witness.
22. [It will be said], "You were certainly in unmindfulness of this, and We have removed from you your cover, so your sight, this Day, is sharp."
23. And his companion, [the angel], will say, "This [record] is what is with me, prepared."
24. [Allah will say], "Throw into Hell every obstinate disbeliever,
Qur'an 50:16-24

 

[aziz rasul]

168. Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allaah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-
169. Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allaah is easy.
170. O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allaah: believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allaah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allaah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:168-70

If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers."
Qur’an - Surah al-An’aam (Cattle) 6:27

68. And who does more wrong than he who invents a lie against Allaah or rejects the Truth when it reaches him? Is there not a home in Hell for those who reject Faith?
69. And those who strive for Us - We will surely guide them to Our ways. And indeed, Allaah is with the doers of good.
Qur’an - Surah al-`Ankabut (The Spider) 29:68-9

 

[aziz rasul]

And it ALSO immediately leads to the question "From where did THAT external being originate?"

God Himself says He has no beginning and is uncreated. If He was created then whoever created God would be the Creator etc. etc. and therefore the universe cannot have come into existence. Hence God cannot have a beginning and is the first uncaused cause.

1. Say He is Allaah the One and Only
2. Allaah the Eternal Absolute
3. He begetteth not nor is He begotten
4. And there is none like unto Him
Qur’an - Surah al-Ikhlaas (Sincerity) 112:1-4

 

[aziz rasul]

But what if the universe ALWAYS existed

But it didn't.

 

[aziz rasul]

If Muslims have the same intellectual leadership and enlightenment, then you are equating all Muslims, including the Taliban, the Iranian Mullahs, the Salafists, the Islamic State, Hamas....

If Muslims follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, then they are rightly guided. We will ALL stand before God to be judged including Muslims.

Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you.
Quran 49:13

I would rather men and women dress according to the principles of Islam rather than going about half naked, unlike western women who are abused, raped and in some cases do obscene things in front of other men and other obscenities including LGBT+ issues. People in the West have no boundaries and need to wake up and behave in a more decent way and avoid committing fornication\adultery in mass numbers. I think it may already be too late. Sigh.

Men and women compliment each other and will be given equal reward in the Hereafter.

Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do.
Quran 16:97

Surely ˹for˺ Muslim men and women, believing men and women, devout men and women, truthful men and women, patient men and women, humble men and women, charitable men and women, fasting men and women, men and women who guard their chastity, and men and women who remember Allah often—for ˹all of˺ them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward.
Qur'an 33:35

 

[The_Doc_Man]

People in the West have no boundaries and need to wake up and behave in a more decent way

Oh... I see. Like the more decent way that Hamas did so recently. Or like so many nations under Islam that are centers of relative poverty because they follow Islamic law regarding businesses and inheritances, thus not allowing them any traction to grow.

All of that scripture quoting is wasted if we don't accept the premise of Allah's existence - which I don't. ALL of those fancy words could just as well have been written by a drug-using, hallucinating lecherous desert warlord who liked little girls. This long after those words were written, we have no modern way to know who actually wrote them. Which means that IF Allah is real, He has abandoned us, given up on the idea of showing us miracles or His divine presence. If you consider the words of other religious prophets, like Jim Jones (of Guyana fame) or David Koresh (of Waco fame) or Joseph Smith (of Latter Day Saints fame) or L. Ron Hubbard (of Scientology fame), were THEY inspired by some divinity? How would we tell the difference between ancient dream states and modern ones? This is a very serious question. WHY should we give more credence to Muhammad than anyone else?

You grew up in a culture that reveres Muhammad but we did not. To us, he's not so special. So why should we care?

 

[aziz rasul]

Why not IDF, Zionists, fundamental Christian Evangelists, etc.

It may be wasted on you, but not on me. Allaah is on the side of the Muslims and your views of growth are completely different to that of Muslims. We grow here and insha-allaah in the Hereafter whilst those who deny Allaah and the Prophets will end up in HELLFIRE. Good luck with that.

You have no idea what culture I was brought up on, so don't presume please. I discovered the truth about Islam when I was 20 without any external influence from anyone.

As far as the Qur'an, you are ignoring verses and in denial so how can you judge. I challenged you on the verses in post 60 which you ignored so how are you in a position to judge any scripture!

 

[The_Doc_Man]

As far as the Qur'an, you are ignoring verses and in denial so how can you judge.

Lets get something absolutely clear here. I am ignoring the verses because I do not accept the validity of their source. If I don't believe the source to be valid, then OF COURSE the verses get ignored. By way of example, if I quoted from the Harry Potter novels, you would ignore the quotes because YOU believe them to be fiction. But it's not acceptable for me to believe that YOUR quotes are from fictional sources?

You have no idea what culture I was brought up on, so don't presume please.

I don't need the specifics. I know, because of your beliefs and their specific directions, that your home culture and mine were different. That is really all I needed to know.

those who deny Allaah and the Prophets will end up in HELLFIRE. Good luck with that.

I get that a lot from Christians, too. Don't believe them either.

You hold up that description of fertilization, but don't forget that Greeks had some pretty astute philosophers long before the Qur'an was written and they philosophically described indivisibility through pure logic. (The word "indivisible" in Greek is "atomos".)

So someone who contributed to the Qur'an came up with a philosophical description of fertilization and got it maybe a bit close. So what? Am I supposed to be impressed with the ingenuity of some unknown contributor? Oh, I know... you will claim that it was DIVINELY inspired. Can I then say that August Kekule was divinely inspired when he recognized the shape of the benzene molecule? Can I say that Louis Pasteur was divinely inspired when he discovered polarization of light by tartaric acid crystals?

You keep coming up with items that remind me of Shania Twain's song "That Don't Impress Me Much." Oh, to be clear, her name is Shania, not Sharia.

 

[Lightwave]

I think at some point we are going to have to accept that something can arise from nothing.

Are there individual or multiple conscious entities in the universe that create and protect.?
Yes us
... but it looks like for a long time we weren't particularly creative or imaginative and hardly conscious.

Do we as conscious entities create things and do we try to protect things? Yes we do.

Are we gods or are we creators ?- We share some characteristics of gods we certainly create and through our offspring we can achieve some form of immortality and yet individually we are in no way infinite or magical.

What came before us?- Well poorer and less intelligent versions of us actually and what comes after us appears to be better and more creative versions of us - I assume you accept that generally our and your children are better versions of ourselves. Quite often our children are taller and quicker and live longer. Walking around Edinburgh I constantly see door frames that are often 1 foot shorter than modern frames.

It would appear that the universe is infinitely stranger than we can imagine but we will keep imagining and keep progressing. But something can come from nothing and the existential proof is everywhere.

It looks like soon we will have thinking computers who will be like gods to us in terms of their power and imagination.
But they will have come after us and not before.

 

[ebs17]

But something can come from nothing

... and everything can disappear into nothingness = black hole.

Maybe we just lack the definition of nothing, with some understanding it's just the other side that we don't see yet.

 

[Mike Krailo]

I think at some point we are going to have to accept that something can arise from nothing.

I would turn that around on you and say at some point we are going to have to accept that only an eternal creator God could possible create something such as the universe out of nothing.

What came before us?- Well poorer and less intelligent versions of us actually and what comes after us appears to be better and more creative versions of us - I assume you accept that generally our and your children are better versions of ourselves. Quite often our children are taller and quicker and live longer. Walking around Edinburgh I constantly see door frames that are often 1 foot shorter than modern frames.

More intelligent? Civilizations come and go along with all their technologies. Just what did all those chambers in the pyramids actually do? How were ancient civilizations like the Mayans able to obtain such great knowledge of the stars? I don't assume less intelligence came before since intelligence is not purely physically manifested. While I'm sure an operating cell phone in the ancient past would have certainly impressed the ancients, they might have shown you something equally or far more impressive. Advances in medical helps the physical body to an extent but does nothing to address the spiritual soul (non-physical) of our being which is directly related to our own self awareness (consciousness). I would say on a whole, that part of us has gotten worse over time. I still think cell phones and computers in general are sucking the life out of people at an alarming rate. Everyone is so obsessed with them (including me). I have to force myself away from it before I can recover spiritually.

If you want a good book to read to get away from all the nonsense for moment, try reading "Imagine Heaven" or the new book "Imagine the God of heaven". Both written by John Burke. There is definitely something in there that is sure to raise your eye brow. Good luck putting the books down after you start reading.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Something certain DOES arise from nothing when dealing with concepts such as "spontaneous pair production." And IDEAS certainly arise from nothing much, given circumstances that lead to thought... such as the (probably apocryphal) store of Newton's falling apple.