The Religion of Atheism

[JamesLast99]

You asked what it was based on: I believe, based on all available evidence that God does not exist. I've stated this clearly.
Since I believe that God doesn't exist, there is no way I can believe that Jesus is his son.
That follows, logically.
Perhaps you should stick to swearing, as you're clearly not cut out for answering questions.

And I didn't argue the opposite did I - your ignoring that falshood you tried to slip in.Its no logical proof that god doesn't exist is it - as you pretend it is?Why can't you stay on the subject - about ten posts running now- you try to get a reaction. Nice try bubba. I'll stick with quoting your false argumnents thanks.

 

[Mike375]

This isn't much more than probable, based on TV stations' propensity for repeating a particular film, over and over, while it's available cheaply. You may not 'know' they're doing this, but that doesn't mean your subconscious hasn't picked up on the pattern.

I have checked this out very carefully and with something like The Right Stuff coming on as I posted I don't really included that as the channel runs three shifts for the day. So I can put that down to coincidence, although quite a strong one.

However, last weekend telling the aquainance about the movie and book is different. I had no way on the weekend of knowing the Right Stuff would be on today and this happens every week and a few tmes and been happening for about 18 months.

But it is not something I can do with the conscious. In other words I can't predict what will be showm. It is always a case of the movie coming to mind and if that happes it is almost 100% it will be shown within 2 to 3 days.

 

[Alisa]

Alisa,

You talk like someone who is locked into some form and the boxes on the form.

I have given you one piece of evidence I have that there is something else than just 2 + 2 = 4.

So if I can predict that a certain song will play on the radio in the next hour, then will you believe that my purple planet exists?

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

This thing about premonitions of what will be on TV - I get it quite a lot myself - maybe as often as once a week or so. I'll be thinking about some specific scene in some obscure film and soon afterwards, I'll happen to find it being shown on TV.

I don't think it's actually supernatural at all (although I once did) - I think it's just confirmation bias:

-We think about multiple thousands of different things every day, a few of which will trigger some memory about some TV or movie thing.

-The interval between any one of these thoughts and something that appears to correspond with it can be a week, and it will still feel like a short time.

-The apparently confirming event could be one of many things - the movie itself, on TV, or a mention of it in a magazine, a clip of it in some advert, or a poster about it, or a mention of it on an internet message board, etc.

-When inevitable coincidences arise, they strike us as notable, and we remember them.

-We don't particularly remember all the many other things we were thinking about, that didn't get any kind of coincidental validation.

Our minds are programmed to look for causes, to find patterns and correlation, because those are in general useful ways to stay alive, but one of the side effects is that we are capable of perceiving patterns and correlations where none actually exists.

 

[Alc]

And I didn't argue the opposite did I - your ignoring that falshood you tried to slip in.Its no logical proof that god doesn't exist is it - as you pretend it is?Why can't you stay on the subject - about ten posts running now- you try to get a reaction. Nice try bubba. I'll stick with quoting your false argumnents thanks.

Do what you like, Paul. You said a while back that I was getting entertaining? You're getting tedious.

You're incapable of answering questions and you can't grasp concepts like logic. EVERY decision that is based on logic, is based on currently held information. Every one. You drop a ball, logically it will fall, based on the fact that you know about gravity. I know ythat god doesn't exist, so my logical deductions are based on that.

If you believe that god not existing is a falsehood - as you just said - you must have some evidence that says his existence is true?

Congratulations on not swearing yet, though. You must be learning something.

 

[Alc]

I have checked this out very carefully and with something like The Right Stuff coming on as I posted I don't really included that as the channel runs three shifts for the day. So I can put that down to coincidence, although quite a strong one.

However, last weekend telling the aquainance about the movie and book is different. I had no way on the weekend of knowing the Right Stuff would be on today and this happens every week and a few tmes and been happening for about 18 months.

But it is not something I can do with the conscious. In other words I can't predict what will be showm. It is always a case of the movie coming to mind and if that happes it is almost 100% it will be shown within 2 to 3 days.

I still hold that you coiuld be picking up the information from somewhere, without realising it. I regularly find myself humming a song I don't think I've heard for ages, only for it to play on the radio shortly afterwards.
I think it's far more likely that I did hear a snatch of it, without realising.

 

[Mike375]

But Mike, 6 months ago I went to the trouble to write the movie name down and the date/time it came to my mind.

What intrigued me to the point of analysing it was I believe in mental telepathy but that could not really apply as the programs are done well in advance.

But I agree with the general theme of your post which is why I analysed what was happening.

 

[Atomic Shrimp]

But Mike, 6 months ago I went to the trouble to write the movie name down and the date/time it came to my mind.

What intrigued me to the point of analysing it was I believe in mental telepathy but that could not really apply as the programs are done well in advance.

But I agree with the general theme of your post which is why I analysed what was happening.

Fair enough - sounds interesting - what was your 'hit' rate? And within what period did your hits typically get resolved?

Also... do the TV stations in your area not show previews and trailers of stuff they will be showing later?

 

[Mike375]

I still hold that you coiuld be picking up the information from somewhere, without realising it. I regularly find myself humming a song I don't think I've heard for ages, only for it to play on the radio shortly afterwards.
I think it's far more likely that I did hear a snatch of it, without realising.

The song on the radio is simple as you know. You are humming all the time and and 1 in every 100 of your humms matches what is comoing on the radio and you remember that.

Applying that to the movies would be thinking every week about a particular movie. Then obviously at some point it will be shown.

But that is not the case with this. I believe I have eliminated the possibilities of getting the information indirectly.

 

[Mike375]

Fair enough - sounds interesting - what was your 'hit' rate? And within what period did your hits typically get resolved?

On avererage it is around 3 movies a week that come to mind and the hit rate is just short of 100%,

Also... do the TV stations in your area not show previews and trailers of stuff they will be showing later?

I eliminated that one when I did the analysing, although I did not think it would be the case because of the movies. I contacted the cable TV provider and gave then the name of the movies and asked if they had been in the advertising. They thought I was mad. Actually I was fortunate because I ened up talking to a fellow at the company that had some interest in this type of thing and that allowed me to it easy over aabout a 6 week period.

One of the reasons I became intrigued with it and hence did a hard core analysis was to see if it could somehow be applied to business and prospects/sales. But alas, it is seems to be restricted to the movies. I thought there might be someway an existing clients name would come to mind and he was ready to buy.

But this is also an example of how people see evidence. I told one of my clients about it ( a born again medical specialist) and expalined that it was super weird but super usleless. His reply......God is showing you the way etc....

This medical specialist (he runs Bible class on Monday nights) believes that God puts out the evidence for us and we either want the evidence or we don't. He believes the people like me are half way there but what stops is we don't want to submit to Jesus.

 

[Rich]

why the sudden doubt that James is Paul.

There's no doubt, both the style and spelling mistakes are identical..............

 

[Alc]

As a side note, what are your thoughts on things such as Alpha Thinking and NLP?

Not doing too well, here.
I can't find one, simple overview of what Alpha Thinking is and while I found a few different definitions for NLP, I wasn't sure which one it was you're referring to?

 

[Mike375]

You won't get a lot on Alpha Thinking and the reason is that NLP, Anthonh Robbins and etc write books that incorporate it and then is not much money in just Alpha Thinking.

Neuro Linguistic Programming is based on the sub conscious as is Alpha Thinking. I did a 3 day course of Alpha Thinking in 1977. It is very hard to do.

Alphas brain waves are the point between awake and going to sleep. Alpha Thinking is about maintaining that state where both the conscious and sub conscious are open. Then the conscious programs the sub conscious.

 

[Alc]

You won't get a lot on Alpha Thinking and the reason is that NLP, Anthonh Robbins and etc write books that incorporate it and then is not much money in just Alpha Thinking.

Neuro Linguistic Programming is based on the sub conscious as is Alpha Thinking. I did a 3 day course of Alpha Thinking in 1977. It is very hard to do.

Alphas brain waves are the point between awake and going to sleep. Alpha Thinking is about maintaining that state where both the conscious and sub conscious are open. Then the conscious programs the sub conscious.

Oh, well in that case - just to be argumentative - I think it's a load of rubbish.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Mike375, a couple of comments come to mind - and I will try to keep on topic and at the same time respectful.

First, atheists don't disbelieve everything. Our approach is that if you see something unusual, it is grounds for further investigation. Because we don't think we know everything. (At least most of us don't...) We are willing to test something according to organized and directed inquiry, research, testing, etc. Such inquiry might lead to a new discovery. Our belief is that new phenomena, even those that look like magic, can be studied and turned into a decent new sublect of science.

Think of it - one day, we'll talk about the Mike375 Syndrome as a reference to subject-specific precognition. (Sorry, it wouldn't be telepathy based on your description of how it works.) You might see if there is a local representative of the Rhine Institute in your area. They could help you rigorously test this ability. Be warned that if they think you are a charlatan, they can be rough on your ego. But if you are serious, they might listen.

The second comment has to do with your response to Alisa's request for evidence, to which you replied, "Just look around." I understand exactly what you are saying but the problem is that such evidence is not unequivocal. (Sorry for the implied double negative there.)

What you see around you can have occurred in either of two ways (at least), and they are moderately to totally incompatible. If God created everything around us, that's how it got that way. If everything evolved through natural forces, then that's how it got that way. But how do you tell? THAT is the real question.

Let me try to explain the problem this way. Suppose that I told you I just rolled a pair of dice that came up as boxcars (two 6-spots), say, 50 times in a row. How did that happen? The odds are astronomically against it. Which gives me two mutually exclusive choices to consider.

1. The throws were honest and I just had an incredible good string of luck.

2. I used some other trick to make it happen because chance had nothing to do with it. Such as a pair of loaded dice or a trick flip of the wrist that prevents the dice from rolling, only spinning on their vertical axes.

Assuming that you even believe I performed the 50 throws that came up 12 as I claimed, you then have to decide after the fact whether #1 or #2 was the cause.

In the case of #1, if it happened as an honest set of throws, then the odds are immaterial after the fact. Odds only talk about prediction, not about explanation of the past. If it happened, the odds are unity i.e. 100% - after the fact. Therefore, saying that something is so improbable as to be impossible to have happened in a given way is meaningless - if it really happened that way. And if it didn't happen, you were right about the odds. The point is that probability ISN'T symmetrical with respect to time. Everything that happened has a probability of 100% after the fact. That isn't true for events that haven't happened yet.

In the case of #2, some extra influence directed the result. Again, the odds don't matter because they were never a factor anyway. The result occurred because of some artifice or action that affected the movement of the dice.

Well, the analogy is that #1 is evolution and #2 is God.

When we ask for evidence, it isn't enough to say, "Well I made 50 throws of boxcars." We need to see the dice or examine your throwing technique. Saying "Look at what happened" doesn't tell us squat about how it happened. It's an apples answer to an oranges question.

Which is why when you say "Look around" as evidence, it is not evidence as to mechanism. Saying "Look around" tells us where we are, not how we got there. But "how did we get here" is the exact nature of the question between God and evolution. How did we get where we are today? Saying "look where we are today" doesn't address the issue.

Does that help you understand why Alisa's question keeps repeating itself?

 

[Mike375]

Oh, well in that case - just to be argumentative - I think it's a load of rubbish.

Actually, you are partly right. A lot of stuff like NLP adds lots of bullshit.

Some people also add to Alpha thinking such things as "out of body" followed by astro travel etc

But Alpha Thinking is about chaning what is stored in the sub conscious.

Most of out attitudes and hence fears are programmed into us but Alpha thinking can change it one session, but very hard to do.

Some people can use it very well for pain management. A lot of pain is due to emotional response which is one of the reasons for prescription pain killers having a lot of codeine, to reduce emotional response to pain. Imagine you get a bad toothache at 8pm. You worry it will become unbearable at 3 am and should you go to a dentist NOW. Then you worry about having to cancel an appointment tomorrow because you will need an extraction of filling. But if God could appear and tell you the pain won't get worse and will be gone in the morning etc. then the pain is greatly reduced.

A very heavy cold or a dose of the flu is the reverse with attitude. The symptoms are really quite bad but you know it will be gone next week and sometimes you can even have laugh while it is on.

 

[Alc]

Actually, you are partly right. A lot of stuff like NLP adds lots of bullshit.

Some people also add to Alpha thinking such things as "out of body" followed by astro travel etc

But Alpha Thinking is about chaning what is stored in the sub conscious.

Most of out attitudes and hence fears are programmed into us but Alpha thinking can change it one session, but very hard to do.

Some people can use it very well for pain management. A lot of pain is due to emotional response which is one of the reasons for prescription pain killers having a lot of codeine, to reduce emotional response to pain. Imagine you get a bad toothache at 8pm. You worry it will become unbearable at 3 am and should you go to a dentist NOW. Then you worry about having to cancel an appointment tomorrow because you will need an extraction of filling. But if God could appear and tell you the pain won't get worse and will be gone in the morning etc. then the pain is greatly reduced.

A very heavy cold or a dose of the flu is the reverse with attitude. The symptoms are really quite bad but you know it will be gone next week and sometimes you can even have laugh while it is on.

I don't believe in anything like astral projection. The mind 'shows' you various things under various conditions. If people want to see these as having travelled, seen heaven, or whatever they will do so. I think this falls into the same category as people seeing religious iconography on towels - if you want to interpret it in a certain way badly enough, you will.

I do believe wholeheartedly that people can use their minds to control pain, etc. After all, if it weren't for your mind interpretting nerve signals, you wouldn't feel it in the first place, so it seems completely plausible that some people can learn to control this at will, to some extent.

 

[Mike375]

Let me try to explain the problem this way. Suppose that I told you I just rolled a pair of dice that came up as boxcars (two 6-spots), say, 50 times in a row. How did that happen? The odds are astronomically against it. Which gives me two mutually exclusive choices to consider.

1. The throws were honest and I just had an incredible good string of luck.

2. I used some other trick to make it happen because chance had nothing to do with it. Such as a pair of loaded dice or a trick flip of the wrist that prevents the dice from rolling, only spinning on their vertical axes.

Well, the analogy is that #1 is evolution and #2 is God.

And Number 2 is also the most likely.

Does that help you understand why Alisa's question keeps repeating itself?

In my experience very hard core atheists are locked into boxes on a form. Everything must fit the form.

Thus Alisa can't see that mental telepathy or similar is in the same department as God/god/gods. The atheist works on the basis that everything can be explained by science.

The other point is that each person has their evidence (or lack of evidence)

Example. I look out the window first thing in the morning and the sky is cloudy. The weather forecast is for rain. I sit down and have a cup of tea and toast. I then hear rain like noise and see water hitting the window and quite hard. But this is not proof that it is raining but for some people it will be enough evidence to declare "it is raining". Of course it could be the neighbour using the garden hose to wash all the dew off his car as it has been out all night and his hose spray is also hitting my window.

I have evidence (from my perspective) that things happen which are not covered by 2 + 2 = 4. Then I have scientists saying there can multiple universe and each with their own natural laws. The there are scientists with the opposite view.

So the most natural and locgical thing for me to go with is there is some sort of outside force. I don't know whether it the Abrahamic God or god or gods or a supernatural (s) but with limited powers. But I know there is something.

But for me it is a natural outcome based on the evidence because in business I am working on gut feel all of the time. If I had to have absolute proof of a situation before moving I would not get much done.

 

[Mike375]

I don't believe in anything like astral projection. The mind 'shows' you various things under various conditions. If people want to see these as having travelled, seen heaven, or whatever they will do so. I think this falls into the same category as people seeing religious iconography on towels - if you want to interpret it in a certain way badly enough, you will.

Did you not see the laughing face I put on astral travel?

I do believe wholeheartedly that people can use their minds to control pain, etc. After all, if it weren't for your mind interpretting nerve signals, you wouldn't feel it in the first place, so it seems completely plausible that some people can learn to control this at will, to some extent.

They can't control the physical part but the response can be controlled which in turn reduces the pain.

If you had a tremendous fear of public speaking then with Alpha thinking you could change that situation to where public speaking was your favourite past time.

Bill and John are two kids that are very good (and equal) at tennis, swimming or whichever sport. Bill goes onto become number 1 and earns millions. John is stuck in a job he doesn't like and the pay is also shit. In fact Bill was only number 50 in the sport he would earn a fortune compared to his shiity job. The only difference between Bill and John were attitudes, probably inluding family attitudes as well. If John and his family had done Alpha Thinking (and it very hard to do) then John would be up there with Bill or better.

Of course the key point is they both had the physical talent.

 

[Alc]

Did you not see the laughing face I put on astral travel?

Sorry, I realise that was worded badly - I did see the face, I was agreeing with you.

They can't control the physical part but the response can be controlled which in turn reduces the pain.

It's all down to the response, surely? Discounting things like snapped tendons not being able to support you, whether you feel them or not.

Bill and John are two kids that are very good (and equal) at tennis, swimming or whichever sport. Bill goes onto become number 1 and earns millions. John is stuck in a job he doesn't like and the pay is also shit. In fact Bill was only number 50 in the sport he would earn a fortune compared to his shiity job. The only difference between Bill and John were attitudes, probably inluding family attitudes as well. If John and his family had done Alpha Thinking (and it very hard to do) then John would be up there with Bill or better.

Of course the key point is they both had the physical talent.

In that example, isn't Alpha Thinking just another term for having self-confidence and drive?