Where'd Everybody Go?

[emcf]

Hi Doc Man,
I think everything you have said is fair and true but misses the point. Hard as it may seem, the city should not be re-built. [/
QUOTE]

I think that's the worst thing I've heard said about the situation. Towns are destroyed all the time by tornadoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, fires, etc...do you think we should never rebuild anything?

Oddly enough, you're not the first person I've heard say that, but the others I've heard say that have said it most likely for different reasons than yourself. They were close-minded self-proclaimed Christians who only seem to follow their religion when it's fit for them who thought the entire city was a city of sin. Someone tell that to the children who lost their parents in the hurricane or the parents who lost their children.

vass,

i understand where you're coming from on this one - a big natural disaster comes and flattens a whole region and by rebuilding it is like sticking two fingers up at what caused the devastation.

however, i do agree with keith - if the city is rebuilt where it was it is only a matter of time before the leveees are breached once more. hurricane intesity levels are rising, global warming or not - this means that the chances of another massive hurricane hitting are increased...why risk the lives of so many people again and again?

we have had flooding problems in britian too, although never on that levels of new orleans. too many people on a small island and houses are being built on floodplains. one new theory is to try to return to the days of old - salt marshes are being created from farmland around the coast in an attempt to absorb flood water and to keep it away from where people live.

is it not an option to have new orleans residents re-sited and have the really low lying areas returned to marshland or whatever was there before the city grew up?

 

[Vassago]

I didn't

It's hard to tell now because it seems like everyone in the UK thinks everyone in the US is a bush supporter. With his approval rating at an all time low, it should be clear this is not the case and even *gasp* republicans are disapproving of him more and more. Unfortunately, it won't be long before his hick brother tries to join the flanks in Bush's with bad speech problems and even worse common sense as president. If America votes one more Bush into office, I'm moving to Japan!

 

[Vassago]

however, i do agree with keith - if the city is rebuilt where it was it is only a matter of time before the leveees are breached once more. hurricane intesity levels are rising, global warming or not - this means that the chances of another massive hurricane hitting are increased...why risk the lives of so many people again and again?

They are? Where are the category five storms for 2006 then? We barely had a category one finally last week, which quickly fell to Cuba's mountains.

is it not an option to have new orleans residents re-sited and have the really low lying areas returned to marshland or whatever was there before the city grew up?

Not really. Look at how much more populate the world is today. It was hard enough finding places for everyone who had to leave their home when the storm came through. Gas quicly ran out around the entire Southeast, even as far as where I live in NE Florida. Hotels out here were also at full capacity. Where would these people go?

Also, there's the fact that a lot of people who live in New Orleans do so because their family always has. They don't own land anywhere else and it's not so easy to just pick up and move.

 

[emcf]

They are? Where are the category five storms for 2006 then? We barely had a category one finally last week, which quickly fell to Cuba's mountains.

maybe later in the season. maybe in '07 or '08. but with a warmer gulf of mexico more storms will pick up more power - another really big one is just a matter of time. better to work with mother nature than take her head on.

Not really. Look at how much more populate the world is today. It was hard enough finding places for everyone who had to leave their home when the storm came through. Gas quicly ran out around the entire Southeast, even as far as where I live in NE Florida. Hotels out here were also at full capacity. Where would these people go?

Also, there's the fact that a lot of people who live in New Orleans do so because their family always has. They don't own land anywhere else and it's not so easy to just pick up and move.

the land ownership issue does strike me as being a big problem....not being familiar with US property law means i cannot understand the full implications of it. i really do not know how that could be resolved. surely in making the strategic decision of building more homes in safer areas such problems could be overcome.

 

[ColinEssex]

I understand what Doc-Man is saying, and I know its difficult for us to comprehend the extent of the devastation.

However, what is amazing us over here (and I guess worldwide) is that the USA bangs on and on about how brilliant it is as a superpower, the worlds saviour and how much they do to help suffering in natural disasters worldwide.

To an extent, I agree that the USA is very quick (usually) to get help to devastated areas (like the tsunami). Then we saw on Monday on the news that parts of New Orleans still looks like Katrina happened yesterday.

I just cannot believe that with all the muscle, power and resourses that the USA has, New Orleans worst areas should have at least been cleared. There is no doubt that GWB has failed badly over this and the USA is once again a laughing stock for having such a prat in charge

Col

 

[TessB]

the USA bangs on and on about how brilliant it is as a superpower, the worlds saviour and how much they do to help suffering in natural disasters worldwide.

Col

I have never heard that speech. When was it made?

 

[Vassago]

I have never heard that speech. When was it made?

Tess, I'm astonished that you missed it! We all joined hands and proudly screamed, "WE'RE #1! WE'RE #1! WE ARE A BRILLIANT SUPERPOWER, THE WORLD'S SAVIOR!"

It figures that just because you give to help someone else, others think you are only trying to promote your own image. It's cynical people like that that make others afraid to try and help because of the backlash they might recieve. Truly a sad world we live in.

This forum used to be fun! I think I'm giving it up. I've had it with all the political BS that every feels they need to voice. It seems like every chance certain people get, they have to bash another country by repeating the same BS over and over again on all parts of the world. How many times do you need to voice your opinions people! What's the point? Does it make you feel better? Can't we get back to being friendly toward each other and NOT talking about politics all the damn time?

So to stay on topic and answer the thread starter...that is why no one posts anymore. Because every thread they start, it turns into fully opinionated political propoganda. I would not bother starting another thread in this forum because it will only lead to the same shit.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Keith Nichols,

Your comment wasn't new to me. My response, were we face-to-face, would probably have gotten me arrested for assault. Fortunately, we are separated by distance so that I could not slap you silly. That gave me time to think about the "right" answer and treat it as an honest but misdirected comment.

1. If we take the "don't rebuild" attitude, then we must ALSO ask people to not rebuild in San Francisco, CA and Anchorage, AK (earthquakes). We must ask folks to move away from large portions of Oklahoma - including Oklahoma City and Tulsa, two fairly large cities, plus large parts of Kansas and southern Nebraska (tornadoes). We must ask folks to leave the coastline of southern California (mudslides). We must ask folks to leave Tampa & St. Petersburg & Orlando and Miami, FL (sinkholes) Actually, add Seattle WA and Portland OR to the mix (earthquakes). Now let's get New York, Chicago, Seattle, Buffalo, and Washington to move (killer blizzards). Leave behind the Pacific Northwest (flash forest-fires). Then there's Phoenix AZ, Albuquerque NM, Ft. Worth, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio TX (killer heat waves).

You can't live anywhere that doesn't have SOME exposure to disaster. So do you cut and run or do you hunker down and rebuild? If you want to go elsewhere, WHERE will you go that DOESN'T have exposure to some sort of natural disaster? (And what do you think will happen to property values when everyone starts moving there? Who would be able to afford it?)

2. N'Awlins is the largest port in the USA by tonnage (though not by ship count or shoreline miles). To rebuild THAT kind of facility adds such a huge cost to the equation that the alternatives that you have to rethink the economics. Add to that the number of railheads, pipelines, and other shipping infrastructure. Then think about what you do to a nation's economy when you abandon their largest port facility.

What do you do in other ports that cannot take up the slack? How long will it take them to upgrade? What do you do with the pipelines, railheads, and such because you can't make the connection without rebuilding those facilities elsewhere - and what do you do in the interim? What do you do to the nation's economy by deciding to close the city and move elsewhere? You are quick to say "Don't spend the money" but you didn't stop to think that people have to live somewhere - so you will just spend the money anyway.

3. A large part of the problem was human negligence, not the disaster itself. The levees would have reduced the flooding had there not been massive failures of responsibility among the quality control engineers in the months after the levees were built or upgraded pre-Katrina.

The two worst breaches were caused by some basic hydraulics. a) Storm surge raised level of water in canals. b) According to Bernoulli's Principle, that means increased flow rate towards the drain point. c) According to sound principles of hydraulics engineering, that increased flow rate increases the pressure on the sides of the canal. Which increases the friction / drag values. (Solids call it friction; fluids call it drag.) d) The failures occurred at points where the increased friction undercut the levees because the clay used to build the foundation was deficient. In other words, sub-standard choice of materials that could have been - but was not - stopped by the inspectors. The above discussion isn't a guess or conjecture on my part. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers published those findings in a report not too long ago, taking much of the blame on itself. And rightly so.

A separate "human failure" issue was that in a couple of areas, the pumps were allowed to stop working. (That's what got my house.) The local government did not ask for someone to stay with the pumps. Current studies indicate that if the pumps had been kept active, they would have reduced the flooding by such a large amount that my damage might have been limited to carpets and floors. But that isn't what happened.

Now the parishes are building "safe" houses for the pump engineers so they can stay during the storm and restart the pumps when needed.

4. As far as flooding goes, we had an article in the local news rag regarding why Sieur d'Iberville and Sieur d'Bienville (actually, Jacques and Pierre LeMoyne) founded the city where they did. They picked the first place up from the mouth of the river that WASN'T flooded out. It was the first place they could have built (and did build) a fort to control the river north of that point. Farther north, they might have built a better, more stable, and less floodable city, BUT it wouldn't have provided full control of the river.

5. To a certain degree, Keith, there ARE some areas where there is talk of a reversion to nature. Some parts that got 15-20 feet (yes FEET - over the tops of one-story houses and about waist-high in two-story houses) of water might indeed be too expensive to protect. But most of the city was NOT that way.

The problem with THIS approach is a variant on Eminent Domain. We are not allowed to take property from someone without paying for it. We (in this case, governmental "we") are not allowed to make decisions that negatively affect property values without just compensation. Abandonment of the repairs would certainly have that effect.

But the folks who are mostly affected by this were poor and didn't own their property anyway. They were renters or in subsidized housing. So who owns the land? The lawsuits and charges of racism have been abounding.

I feel I can safely assure you, the water was race-neutral. It was, however, NOT neutral with respect to physical elevation. The rebuilding efforts are still heading towards the worst areas, but as noted earlier, there is a massive infrastructure problem that slows down progress there. And that just happens to also be an area that was not racially balanced. Hence the loud squawking of the populace.

 

[Vassago]

Very nice information Doc Man. I learned a lot from your description.

 

[MrsGorilla]

Tess, I'm astonished that you missed it! We all joined hands and proudly screamed, "WE'RE #1! WE'RE #1! WE ARE A BRILLIANT SUPERPOWER, THE WORLD'S SAVIOR!"

I personally wear a banner every day to work proclaiming this.

It figures that just because you give to help someone else, others think you are only trying to promote your own image. It's cynical people like that that make others afraid to try and help because of the backlash they might recieve. Truly a sad world we live in.

Amen to that.

This forum used to be fun! I think I'm giving it up. I've had it with all the political BS that every feels they need to voice. It seems like every chance certain people get, they have to bash another country by repeating the same BS over and over again on all parts of the world. How many times do you need to voice your opinions people! What's the point? Does it make you feel better? Can't we get back to being friendly toward each other and NOT talking about politics all the damn time?

Another amen. It's pretty sad to me to think that there are people out there that are so consumed by bitterness that they aren't capable of discussing anything else. I've thought a few times about giving it up, and I don't visit as frequently (although the last couple of weeks I have as I've been working on an Access project). But I still keep coming back every couple of weeks to see what's going on. Sadly, every time I look in the exact same thing(s) are going on as have been for too long. I hope you stick it out and don't leave. We've lost enough good people already due to the insensitivities of a few.

So to stay on topic and answer the thread starter...that is why no one posts anymore. Because every thread they start, it turns into fully opinionated political propoganda. I would not bother starting another thread in this forum because it will only lead to the same shit.

Yup. Not much more to say on that.

 

[MrsGorilla]

As always Doc Man, your post explains things very well. Sad that the people who need to read it won't, or won't bother to learn anything from someone who is actually close enough to the situation to know the TRUTH, and will just continue to make ill-informed, politically charged statements about the matter.

I'm just glad that you are getting on with the rebuilding process and hopefully will be back in your own home before long.

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

government money is still available, it is just hard to get

Sounds just like the UK ...............

 

[TessB]

This forum used to be fun! I think I'm giving it up.

A song springs to mind....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFkR1KBG5E

I love you
Yeah
Babe, I love you so
I want you to know
That I'm going to miss your love
The minute you walk out that door
(Chorus)
So please don't go
Don't go
Don't go away
Please don't go
Don't go
I'm begging you to stay
If you leave
At least in my lifetime
I've had one dream come true
I was blessed to be loved
By someone as wonderful as you
(Chorus)
Hey, hey, hey
Yeah
Babe, I love you so
I, I want you to know
That I'm going to miss your love
The minute you walk out that door
So please don't go
Don't go
Don't go away
Hey, hey, hey
I need your love
I'm down on my knees
Beggin' please, please, please
Don't go
Don't you hear me baby
please don't go

Don't leave me now
Oh, no, no, no, no
Please don't go
I want you to know
That I, I, I, love you so
Don't leave me baby
Please don't go

 

[Rich]

It's hard to tell now because it seems like everyone in the UK thinks everyone in the US is a bush supporter.

No, no, we know exactly who his supporters are here, you're not on our list.

With his approval rating at an all time low, it should be clear this is not the case and even *gasp* republicans are disapproving of him more and more.

Which is why he's playing the "terrorist threat" again

If America votes one more Bush into office, I'm moving to Japan

You can't escape, there is no escape, you'll still see his mug on the screen

 

[Rich]

As always Doc Man, your post explains things very well. Sad that the people who need to read it won't, or won't bother to learn anything from someone who is actually close enough to the situation to know the TRUTH, and will just continue to make ill-informed, politically charged statements about the matter.

The TRUTH is Cindy that had Bush not been a meglomaniac, the National Guard would be in the area en-masse helping to rebuild your own country. How odd that we're branded as anti-American for saying so.

 

[MrsGorilla]

How odd that we're branded as anti-American for saying so.

Did I mention your name? Or say anything about anti-American? And besides, the National Guard aren't builders.

 

[Rich]

Did I mention your name? Or say anything about anti-American?

No, but we've been accused of it so many times

And besides, the National Guard aren't builders.

No but there's a hell of a mess that needs cleaning up first

 

[Keith Nichols]

Keith Nichols,
Your comment wasn't new to me. My response, were we face-to-face, would probably have gotten me arrested for assault.

Doc Man,

Firstly, I doubt I would have made the comments were we face to face. Secondly, I assume you read my posts at least twice and I hope that if you did, you were able to see that there was and is no malice on my part.

A conversation where one party has a vested interest in things that affect their lives and the lives of all around them in a massive and traumatic way and a disinterested party taking an 'academic' (and perhaps ill informed) viewpoint is not really balanced. I am also lacking in local knowledge and so may be wide of the mark in several areas of my comments which will not help matters.

I was glad to read that you were progressing well with your re-building works and wish you well. I am very sorry, though on reflection, and considering the nature of my remarks, not overly surprised, that my comments have upset you and presumably others, whether they have a connection with New Orleans or not.

I don't have any direct interest or knowledge of New Orleans, nor involvement in the aftermath of Katrina. As my opinions are upsetting to those that do have a connection, I shall not post on this thread again.

Once again, I am truly sorry for any upset I may have caused.

While I am at it, I will apologize to all readers for diverting the thread from a lighthearted vein to something altogether more sombre.

 

[Karma]

A bit of perspective,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/04/in_pictures_flooding_in_cornwall/html/1.stm Pics


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/3571844.stm At the time


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/4133936.stm 1 year on

These are pictures of a flooded village in Cornwall England -2004. The flooding was caused by a intense and very localised storm in the moorland above the village that overwhelmed the river. The village was damaged not only by the shear volume of water but the movement of rocks in the 1 tonne + size that litterally rolled through the houses. Thanks to an daring and dangerous rescue mission by the local emergency services and RAF no one died. My point? Having been to this place on numerous occasions i followed with interest the TV series that documented it's rehabilitation. It's a tiny village with a few hundred homes and it took well over a year to put most of it right i can't see how a city the size of New Orleans could be rebuilt in a year no matter how much money or man power could be thrown at it.

K.

 

[ColinEssex]

It figures that just because you give to help someone else, others think you are only trying to promote your own image.

Partially true Vass, the USA always gives help and makes damn sure the world knows it, yet I have always been complimentary to the USA for the speed and help it gives in helping people in natural disaters. Its just a shame it ignores its home grown disasters.

Experts have been warning for years of the potential catastrophic devastation that a category 4 or 5 hurricane could have on the Gulf Coast. And in Louisiana, local officials have fought for federal funding to implement hurricane defense plans that could have avoided the widespread flooding of New Orleans. But under the Bush Administration, funding for those projects has been continuously slashed, leaving the Gulf Coast unprepared for such a disaster.

link


Think about this - the US government (and private donations) paid out $41BILLION in compensation for 11/9 victims, yet people witter on about the blacks are poor in New Orleans, don't have insurance so thats just tough. Look at this story from yesterdays paper. Its about one of the thousands of multi-millionaires created by the 11/9 payoutLink


What I was getting at was that the USA always makes a song and dance about doing something then there's huge embarrassment when it turns out to be rubbish. Like Rumsy said, the USA would capture Bin-Laden within 6 weeks of 11/9/01 - now its 5 years on and still not caught.

I have never heard that speech. When was it made?

Have you never seen this picture? (and Bush made sure it was beamed worldwide) after the USA bombed the hell out of Iraq - murdered thousands. . . . . . . . mission accomplished???

I've had it with all the political BS that every feels they need to voice.

Get a decent President in would be a start. Try one who dislikes murdering people, doesn't take backhanders for contracts, is honest etc etc oh, and make sure they can read and speak properly

I would not bother starting another thread in this forum because it will only lead to the same shit.

What did you want to say?

Col