Why The Gun Is Civilization

[Brianwarnock]

It is true that there is a theory that Nagasaki was to hasten the Japanese descision before the Russians grabbed a large slice of the Asian action, and to say to Russia " Hey we've got more than one of these so behave". But then you have to consider the argument that it worked as a mutual deterrent during the cold war, therefore going around waving a big gun might be a good thing. But I think I'm about to go round in circles and dissappear were the sun don't shine.


Brian

 

[Rich]

I had a long 'discussion' with Rich a while back on this. Having thought about it, I think that what you say is true however I do think the bombings served an additional 'demonstrative' purpose in preparation for the oncoming cold war. Diplomatic attempts to prevent this from happening were kept to a minimum.

Nah, nah, (even though according to most on this site I hate Americans) the allies were right to bring the war to a swift end with the bomb, the Japanese were far from defeat at the time. Allied losses would have been enormous had they been forced to try and land on the Japanese mainland. The cold war was not forseen at the time and even when Churchill mentioned the iron curtain America buried her head in the sand and denied there was a problem

 

[dan-cat]

It is true that there is a theory that Nagasaki was to hasten the Japanese descision before the Russians grabbed a large slice of the Asian action, and to say to Russia " Hey we've got more than one of these so behave". But then you have to consider the argument that it worked as a mutual deterrent during the cold war, therefore going around waving a big gun might be a good thing. But I think I'm about to go round in circles and dissappear were the sun don't shine.


Brian

The US and USSR still waged war Bri, they just did it by proxy that's all.

I just don't see the mileage in this deterrence argument.

 

[Rich]

And that is the big mistake that we (in the Western world) have been making. We're so ingrained in our mode of thinking that we just can't adjust to a different mode - that of the suicide attacker - and we base our defenses and deterrents on an incorrect assessment of the opponent's fears and motivations.

No. the problem is that there is no valid target to strike back at....

 

[KenHigg]

...America buried her head in the sand and denied there was a problem

Like we should have done with Iraq

 

[dan-cat]

Nah, nah, (even though according to most on this site I hate Americans) the allies were right to bring the war to a swift end with the bomb, the Japanese were far from defeat at the time. Allied losses would have been enormous had they been forced to try and land on the Japanese mainland. The cold war was not forseen at the time and even when Churchill mentioned the iron curtain America buried her head in the sand and denied there was a problem

We've done this one before so I won't take you up on it

 

[Rich]

The US and USSR still waged war Bri, they just did it by proxy that's all.

Which one actually got actively engaged in this game embroiled in the philosophy that bombs and bullets solve everything, in fact they still do

 

[Rich]

Like we should have done with Iraq

Yes, at last you've seen sense

 

[Brianwarnock]

Which one actually got actively engaged in this game embroiled in the philosophy that bombs and bullets solve everything, in fact they still do

You are not trying to suggest that Russia was not engaged in a war by proxy are you? The fact that America had to fight Russia's proxies is hardly a condemnation of America, or Britain who did the same although in our case it was often merely to hang on to colonies.

Brian

 

[dan-cat]

or Britain who did the same although in our case it was often merely to hang on to colonies.

Brian

cue... mitigating circumstances for UK involvement in proxy war engaging [Stage Left]

 

[Rich]

You are not trying to suggest that Russia was not engaged in a war by proxy are you? The fact that America had to fight Russia's proxies is hardly a condemnation of America, or Britain who did the same although in our case it was often merely to hang on to colonies.

Brian

We only got involved in small scale wars Brian, America actively bombed the crap out of how many countries? And it could be argued that the Soviets only became engaged after the US went in like the Chinese in Korea after gun ho MacCarthur started to escalate the Korean war

 

[dan-cat]

An interesting perspective:

link

 

[KenHigg]

We only got involved in small scale wars Brian, America actively bombed the crap out of how many countries? And it could be argued that the Soviets only became engaged after the US went in like the Chinese in Korea after gun ho MacCarthur started to escalate the Korean war

Your global premise is that America has never done anything correct. Not much substance

 

[Rich]

Your global premise is that America has never done anything correct. Not much substance

One or two things correctly, the rest disasters, plenty of substance

 

[KenHigg]

One or two things correctly, the rest disasters, plenty of substance

Thanks for validating my premise -

 

[Brianwarnock]

cue... mitigating circumstances for UK involvement in proxy war engaging [Stage Left]

I thought I was being critical of Britain.

Brian

 

[qailoh]

I thought I was being critical of Britain.

Brian

I took your comment as an admission that the UK's been there, done that, too. I think dan-cat was just (accurately) predicting Rich's response...

 

[dan-cat]

I thought I was being critical of Britain.

Brian

You were, I was anticipating Rich's response to your criticism.

 

[Rich]

I took your comment as an admission that the UK's been there, done that, too. I think dan-cat was just (accurately) predicting Rich's response...

You miss the point like other Americans, apart from the idiotic Bliar/Bush war, we don't get involved in that crap anymore, not only that but stating that we used to do it so it's alright now for America to behave the same is the most banal excuse I've heard

 

[statsman]

You miss the point like other Americans, apart from the idiotic Bliar/Bush war, we don't get involved in that crap anymore, not only that but stating that we used to do it so it's alright now for America to behave the same is the most banal excuse I've heard

As banal as most of your posts.

The main reason Britain stopped getting into these scrapes is because they lost their main motivation...the Empire.

BTW there is evidence aplenty that Japan was seeking to end the war BEFORE the Atomic Bombs. The Emperor had ordered peace feelers be made to the Allies through both the Swiss and the Swedes. They failed as Japan would not agree to unconditional surrender which were the only terms the Allies would accept.

Another sidebar to the Japan/Abomb scenario is that the Soviets were moving 100 Divisions from Western Europe to Siberia to fight the Japanese in China. The Americans wanted a Japanese surrender BEFORE the Soviets could get involved and therefore keep them out of Japan. They didn't want Japan carved up the way Germany was. The Soviet Union did not declare war on Japan until the day after Hiroshima.