DOGE

[Pat Hartman]

Just like DOGE is not going to make even a dent in our debt. Which, by the way, is owed to us.

I think you mean "owed by us". So, whatever DOGE can claw back isn't going to paying down the debt? Not sure why it shouldn't. I like giving some of it back to the people but deciding how to divvy up the pile is going to cause a "Constitutional Crisis" as the factions decide who gets what and when. Just throw it at the debt and be done with it.

What the DOGE team's primary effect will be is how it affects future debt or lack there of and how Congress allocates money. Congress has to stop throwing wads of bills at agencies and then letting the agencies fund programs that work AGAINST the actual laws of the country because some people think that some laws should be ignored. It is hard to get those people to say exactly which laws should be ignored. I prefer to ignore the one that says I have to pay over a quarter of my retirement income which is about a quarter of my pre-retirement income to the government for my SS check which was originally intended to be tax exempt.

Doge is also going to clean up procedures so that the government uses standard accounting practices so that it can ALWAYS tie payments to invoices and ALWAYS know who is cashing the checks - at a minimum. And always find dead people within a year or two of their passing.

There is absolutely no excuse for letting so many obviously dead people accumulate on the SSA roles. This falls into the same category as allowing dead people and people who've moved accumulate on the voter roles. SOMEONE benefits from this practice. FOLLOW THE MONEY. When you use the other databases available for comparison such as the IRS roles and the other databases such as the drivers' licenses and property owners and other entitlement programs for comparison, you all get cleaner data. I don't care if you need 50 separate programs for each file type, Once they're written, they run several times each year to make adjustments. It's not rocket science. This is simple day-to-day auditing in my world. Keep your data clean, one day at a time.

 

[Steve R.]

Just like DOGE is not going to make even a dent in our debt.

Much more than simply being a debt issue. Doge is uncovering fraudulent transactions by the Biden administration. Look at the EPA scandals. USAID has also been involved in fraudulent transactions going back, at least, to the Clintons if not earlier.

Zeldin EPA discovers $2 billion stashed away by Biden admin for Stacey Abrams-linked climate group

Former Georgia Democratic gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams was a fierce supporter of former President Joe Biden.

nypost.com

Administrator Zeldin Announces that Billions of Dollars Worth of “Gold Bars” Have Been Located at Outside Financial Institution | US EPA

EPA News Release: Administrator Zeldin Announces that Billions of Dollars Worth of “Gold Bars” Have Been Located at Outside Financial Institution

www.epa.gov

Maybe Doge won't put a major dent in reducing our debt. Nevertheless, sanity would seem to imply that every effort to reduce waste and fraud should be celebrated instead of being condemned.

 

[moke123]

Just read that doge shut down our Community Health Program's Mobile Health Unit. It's basically a medical practice on wheels that visits the senior housing complexes and senior centers. It's funded mostly through Medicare , Medicaid and some other government programs. It also receives some donations and private insurance but not enough to continue services. That's a pretty hard hit for old folks in a rural area with a doctor shortage.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Just read that doge shut down our Community Health Program's Mobile Health Unit. It's basically a medical practice on wheels that visits the senior housing complexes and senior centers. It's funded mostly through Medicare , Medicaid and some other government programs. It also receives some donations and private insurance but not enough to continue services. That's a pretty hard hit for old folks in a rural area with a doctor shortage.

Where is the link? As of 7:50pm pacific time nothing on CNN, MSN, MSNBC or ABC yet.

 

[AccessBlaster]

 

[Thales750]

I think you mean "owed by us". So, whatever DOGE can claw back isn't going to paying down the debt? Not sure why it shouldn't. I like giving some of it back to the people but deciding how to divvy up the pile is going to cause a "Constitutional Crisis" as the factions decide who gets what and when. Just throw it at the debt and be done with it.

I know this concept is foreign to you; we own most of the debt. It's so sad how little Republicans get on how this really works.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Yeah, it must be me with the broken brain.

Finally, a glimmer of hope that he might one day recognize the error of his ways!

 

[Mike Krailo]

We all have our bias's and there is nothing wrong with that. But we cannot all be right if we are in disagreement. Heck, we could be both wrong if enough information is left out of what has been reported. If your going to make an iron clad point that cannot be dismissed, then you better back it up with receipts that everyone can understand and verify. That's the mark of a great communicator.

Some are really smart but cannot communicate well. That's unfortunate.
Some can communicate well and use that to deceive others for personal gain on purpose. Most politicians fall into that category.
Few can communicate the truth well, because most people don't want to hear the truth. This goes back thousands of years.

The truth as it relates to DOGE is there are going to be some feathers that get ruffled in the crossfire of reducing waste and abuse in the government. My prediction is all the genuine false positives that are generated during the audit will eventually be address and it won't cause any harm. Too early to tell as this is just getting started. If anyone does get caught up in it and you know your job is needed, then you have nothing to worry about. It will get resolved IMO.

The truth is the president has the right to fire anyone he wants in the federal government that is deemed unnecessary or contrary to what the people want and voted for. I can only hope the lower courts fighting this mandate by the people get crushed in the process. That's my personal opinion and desire.

The whole wrongful firing argument does not override the presidential power to run the federal government the way he sees fit. It has nothing to do with your ability to do your job, or that you did something wrong that deserves firing. It just means, your services are no longer needed. End of story.

 

[Isaac]

Yeah - if private companies can fire an employee at will for cause, the government definitely should be able to do that I would think

I wish DOGE would have rather studied all positions, then came out with a well crafted Report on the situation, then allowed public or at least legislative comment, then done the firings.

Let's say they fire someone worth $102k/year, let's say it's somewhat reckless.
Then Oops - that person was a Quality Control person for sending out checks - his absence now results in $1 MIllion in errors

You can easily see how the solution might be worse than the problem

 

[moke123]

The whole wrongful firing argument does not override the presidential power to run the federal government the way he sees fit. It has nothing to do with your ability to do your job, or that you did something wrong that deserves firing. It just means, your services are no longer needed. End of story.

Except for the laws that were put in place specifically to prevent these types of firings. The class action lawsuits aren't far away.

Are Federal Employees At-Will Employees? - Federal Employment Law Firm of Aaron D Wersing PLLC

Are federal employees at-will employees? The simple answer to this question is “no.”

fedemploymentattorneys.com

The MSPB already ruled that 6 of the firings were illegal and indicated that the others are also likely illegal.

 

[Mike Krailo]

I wish DOGE would have rather studied all positions, then came out with a well crafted Report on the situation, then allowed public or at least legislative comment, then done the firings.

No, there is simply not enough time to actually make a difference. Any delays are a weapon against getting things done that have needed to be done for a very long time. The people are sick and tired of waiting. We want action on the promises. He is well within his power to get this done.

 

[AccessBlaster]

It's a process similar to progressive discipline, once the criteria is fulfilled (not returning to work) when ordered, they're fired.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Except for the laws that were put in place specifically to prevent these types of firings. The class action lawsuits aren't far away.

Are Federal Employees At-Will Employees? - Federal Employment Law Firm of Aaron D Wersing PLLC

Are federal employees at-will employees? The simple answer to this question is “no.”

fedemploymentattorneys.com

The MSPB already ruled that 6 of the firings were illegal and indicated that the others are also likely illegal.

Unfortunately, there is going to battle on this. Personally I think it is more of the same stall tactics being played out corrupt judges. If it goes all the way up to the SCOTUS and they will, I will be surprised. I think it gets shot down. The argument that no one can be fired by the president is just wrong. Without that power, we are left with un-fireable bureaucrats. That's the epitome of evil in government.

 

[Isaac]

The class action lawsuits aren't far away.

Class actions against government entities are rare

 

[Isaac]

we are left with un-fireable bureaucrats. That's the epitome of evil in government

I agree.

There is a long and storied history of the evolution of federal agencies' dependence or independence from the Executive branch, I read about it in Gorsuch's new book.

If the Court was willing to declare the truth about unelected agency officials creating rules that act as laws even with criminal sanctions.......then perhaps they will find a way to eliminate this "can't be fired" thing

 

[AccessBlaster]

Class actions against government entities are rare

What's the old adage "you can't fight city hall"

 

[moke123]

If it goes all the way up to the SCOTUS and they will, I will be surprised.

Surprise! it already has been.

The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly held that, when a cause is required to remove a public employee, due process is necessary to determine if that cause has been met. Neither Congress nor the President has the power to ignore or waive due process.

 

[moke123]

Class actions against government entities are rare

Probably true.
However I doubt the judicial system would want to try however many thousands of cases there are which would take an extremely long time. Possibly a decade if not more. The courts would likely join the cases for expediency since they all arise out of the same fact pattern and circumstances.

Besides, the likelihood of the plaintiffs prevailing is pretty strong and the amount of back pay with statutory interest (19% ?) would be enormous. There could also be punitive damages since the law couldn't be clearer. It would probably eat up the rest of all those taxes Pat doesn't like to pay.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Surprise! it already has been.

"when a cause is required to remove a public employee". How about when there is no cause? How about when your services are no longer needed? Has nothing to do with cause so it should be irrelevant. If it's the case that employee's cannot be removed in that manor just like in the private sector, we are in big trouble as a country.

A certain powerful agency might get involved if it has to and then things could get very interesting. Corruption needs to be rooted out one way or the other. That's the deal going forward.

 

[moke123]

Maybe this will help you understand the issues. It gives a good history of the laws.

https://www.mspb.gov/studies/studies/What_is_Due_Process_in_Federal_Civil_Service_Employment_1166935.pdf