Are you an atheist? (4 Viewers)

Old Man Devin said:

I contend the opposite: that an infinitely large universe, or or an infinite number of finite universes, outlandish events are CERTAIN to occur, just because any event that doesn't have a probability of exactly zero will occur at some point, and some point, somewhere in reality.

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But the universe isn't actually infinite - now is it?
It has a calculated size, a calculated age, and and calculated amount of mass. As far as infinite universes - that one really leaves me in the stardust, sorry to say. There are a vast number of subjects I have no significant knowledge of, nor understanding of, including the concept of infinite alternate universes. But the known universe - the one we live in, that is the one to which I refer.
I recently read a discussion about the typing chimp.
The old parable is that a chimp, given an infinite amount of time, or an infinite number of chimps on infinite typewriters, will type every play Shakespeare wrote, or even every book ever written, etc.
In this discussion, they examined the actual probabilities of a chimp randomly hitting keys, and typing just the FIRST LINE of Hamlet. To arrive at even a faint likelyhood of it would take - I don't know - billions of times longer than the universe has existed or is predicted to exist.
Conclusion: It ain't gonna happen.
I guess you could make the point that you are making - that in an infinite amount of time, anything that COULD happen WILL happen.
It's convenient to say so, because it really doesn't involve any further thinking. But the reality is, in our universe (and not an infinite number of hypothetical alternate universes) there are a fixed number of atoms, a certain number of years, and after all there is a finite boundary to it all. If not, well then, anything could happen - kangaroos could jump and reach moon, the past could be changed and JFK would still be alive, Elvis would still be in the building, cockroaches could sing opera, and politicians could tell the truth. But we all know, none of those things could ever actually happen.

If you subscribe to the idea that humans evolved from chimp-like creatures then an evolved chimp-like creature has already typed the FIRST LINE of Hamlet .. his name was William Shakespeare.

nanscombe said:

If you subscribe to the idea that humans evolved from chimp-like creatures then an evolved chimp-like creature has already typed the FIRST LINE of Hamlet .. his name was William Shakespeare.

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I could say you missed the point of a the parable, and the chimp is just a device for generating random strings of characters on a typewriter, and it could just as well have been a bouncing ping-pong ball on the keys.
Or, I could say:
Exactly. Not by random chance - but by intelligence and meaningful creative effort. Just what I've been saying.
I could deal with your comment either way - except I think you must be joking. William Shakespeare; a chimp-like creature. Now THAT'S a stretch!

Libre said:

I could say you missed the point of a the parable, and William Shakespeare; a chimp-like creature. Now THAT'S a stretch!

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There are people who say that the Bard did not write any of it. I don't take a position one way or the other.

Libre: I wanted to contribute to the discussion, which had evolved into a discussion of whether the Japanese Emperor should have been tried as a war criminal, and I wanted to address the subject of the thread and get it back on track. How the heck could I answer this?

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I guess the turning of the thread from Atheism to what it has become is my fault. Everybody here kept telling me there is no GOD and of course the name of the thread tells me why. I thus stated that Atheism is a religion all its own and has a worldview of Naturalism/evolution or Transcendentalism .......and there goes the thread!

In most cases Atheism believes that all things was started by a....

a little hydrogen, anti-matter, a few other particles (basically), one small random event and the Big Bang went off. Out of the random events or lack there of, billions of whole galaxies (roughly put together the same way every time) were built. Now over some 4.5 billion years the universe has expanded and created billions of breathtaking phenomenon ever imagined. Then somewhere out there on one piece of rock (we now call earth),on the outskirts of one galaxy (out of billions), a tiny bit of primordial ooze (just one molecule or DNA strand away from a slug) we became human. During this time, we also grew a brain larger than all other animals including the slug (if it has one-- I doubt it). Through evolution, all species, the heavens, trees/other plants, everything on earth was created spontaneously. Perhaps that one random event set off a chain reaction of sorts, who knows. Now I am being told that our brains was hard wired to think from the beginning that there was a God. Hard-wired...Out of all that Ooze, who would have thunk it? The average Atheist has made his/her choice based on their religion (faith) and that is not to believe in one God but evolution. Transcendentalism goes one step further and believes that man himself along with the spiritual world of nature is a God and of course the Post-Modern worldview people believes there are no worldviews, everything is just there.

Galaxiom (one of my first contacts in the thread) is angry because the Christian religion, a theist worldview, believes everything was created by one being, the Christian God Jehoava! He often speaks of the thousands of people killed by Abraham's God' and consistently belittles those who would believe in such a being . He leaves out the fact, that Lenin (sometimes called the father of communism)was an Atheist. How many millions upon millions have been killed in the name of his religion (faith), (worldview Naturalism/evolution). Mr. Galaxiom simply believes in same religion (faith). He was right though and I am paraphrasing, 'there are all kinds of Gods being worshiped throughout the world' and that in itself in sad in my opinion.

I apologize for turning the thread on its ears. If I at anytime made someone uncomfortable or feel that I was mocking or angry at them, I assure you I was not but simply trying to respond to questions and /or ideas they had.

To leave the subject and let the thread get back to its original purpose; I have my religion (faith) and have made my choice. You have your religion (faith) and have made your choice. While I think it is the wrong decision (as you probably do mine), I do respect your decision.

Have a good day :>)

Bladerunner

Libre said:

... I could deal with your comment either way - except I think you must be joking. William Shakespeare; a chimp-like creature. Now THAT'S a stretch!

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Not if humans evolved from apes.

@Bladerruner
You wrote:

Galaxiom (one of my first contacts in the thread) is angry because the Christian religion, a theist worldview, believes everything was created by one being, the Christian God Jehoava!

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With all respect, Galaxiom don't seems to be ANGRY. Just with some more hot blood.
No. Generally, we, the atheists, are not angry because someone believe that somewhere is a god.
Just we can't understand how a book of stories (I refer to the Bible) and, more than that, a certain story that show us a young lady (called Mary) that have a child but without her husband participation (it happen many times ) ) can be the base for a religion with millions adepts.

You also wrote:

He often speaks of the thousands of people killed by Abraham's God' and consistently belittles those who would believe in such a being . He leaves out the fact, that Lenin (sometimes called the father of communism)was an Atheist. How many millions upon millions have been killed in the name of his religion (faith), (worldview Naturalism/evolution).

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The answer is very simple: no one.
No one has been killed because he was a theist.
Millions, theists or not, have been killed because the political side.
But this is another story. Here, under Watercooler, is a thread: Is capitalism better than socialism ? Take a look there and we can continue the debates about Lenin in that thread.

About the probabilities: (real story)
One of the Romanian lottery "game" is called 6 from 49.
That mean that if you have 6 numbers on your ticket (from a total of 49 numbers) you will become a very rich man.
I play very rarely. Maybe one ticket in 5 years.
One time I "choose" this numbers: 1,2,3,4,5,6 and I show the ticket to more peoples.
Each one, with no exception, said me that I am crazy. Why ? Because. With no demonstration.
Or with a demonstration in the believers manner: "Have you seen ever at the lottery five numbers in this order ?" (mean n, n+1, n+2, ..., n+5)
No math can convince they that my ticket has equal chances as any other to be the winner.

Of course that my ticket wasn't the winner . Again, in the same manner with the non-atheists some of the people who have seen before my ticket have said to me: "Are you, NOW, sure that you have no chance with a ticket like yours ?"

No. I am not

Libre said:

As a layperson (in astrophysics and cosmology at any rate) I would have thought there is more to know about stars than just their distance and brightness.

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Stars sport the most common reactions in the Universe. The progress of these reactions is governed by the pressure and temperature of the core and ultimately the mass of the star. Scientists know what the future holds for a star by measuring it.

Millions of stars have been observed and it is very rare for astronomers to find something glowing in the distance that cannot be quickly recognised as one phase or another of a star's life or death.

Theoretical knowledge and actual, provable knowledge are two distinctly different things.

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Well they are the same for General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics which together explain the evolution of the Universe from when it was much smaller than a single atom.

Moreover, both of these theories were developed well ahead of their subsequent demonstration and application.

Lastly, Galaxion, I think Socrate's quote - which I have made my signature on this forum, bears some reflection. A little more of THAT attitude, and a little less OH, I HAVE ALL THIS FIGURED OUT would go a long way.

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I am quite confident that Socrates never adopted your ridiculous posturing and the personal blasting of those who offered insight of the subject in any discussion regardless of whether he agreed with the position or not..

Libre said:

But the universe isn't actually infinite - now is it?
It has a calculated size, a calculated age, and and calculated amount of mass. As far as infinite universes - that one really leaves me in the stardust, sorry to say. There are a vast number of subjects I have no significant knowledge of, nor understanding of, including the concept of infinite alternate universes. But the known universe - the one we live in, that is the one to which I refer.
I recently read a discussion about the typing chimp.
The old parable is that a chimp, given an infinite amount of time, or an infinite number of chimps on infinite typewriters, will type every play Shakespeare wrote, or even every book ever written, etc.
In this discussion, they examined the actual probabilities of a chimp randomly hitting keys, and typing just the FIRST LINE of Hamlet. To arrive at even a faint likelyhood of it would take - I don't know - billions of times longer than the universe has existed or is predicted to exist.
Conclusion: It ain't gonna happen.
I guess you could make the point that you are making - that in an infinite amount of time, anything that COULD happen WILL happen.
It's convenient to say so, because it really doesn't involve any further thinking. But the reality is, in our universe (and not an infinite number of hypothetical alternate universes) there are a fixed number of atoms, a certain number of years, and after all there is a finite boundary to it all. If not, well then, anything could happen - kangaroos could jump and reach moon, the past could be changed and JFK would still be alive, Elvis would still be in the building, cockroaches could sing opera, and politicians could tell the truth. But we all know, none of those things could ever actually happen.

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My responses:
The Universe may be infinite. The evidence is not complete enough to say, but I think it is currently leaning towards an infinite Universe. The calculated size etc. is only the Observable Universe, a small area of the Universe with Earth at the center. We can't see outside it because the light from outside can't reach us (space expanding faster than the rate at which it approaches us, pushing it back). But the rest of the Universe is assumed to be similar to our section, broadly.

The infinite universes idea is simply: in the space outside the universe, sometimes called the 'Quantum Foam', universes are created and destroyed constantly, but a lucky new are not destroyed immediately after creation and expand to become fully blown universes. Sometimes the conditions of expansion happen to allow complex matter to form inside them. Most of the time it doesn't, and the universe is just full of radiation or solid opaque particle blobs.

It does sound somewhat crazy, but it is all a consequence of quantum physics (I did a Masters degree in this).

The resultant argument is that we are in just one of the many expanded universes that is lucky enough to have conditions favourable to complex structures.

I'm not sure what the argument of your final points are. It is actually true that anything can happen. Somewhere in the Universe there can be a planet exactly the same as ours in every way, except JFK is alive. There is no physical reason why that could not happen, as fantastical as it sounds. 100% natural processes could create such a thing, with no supernatural requirements.

Another point to consider is this. Even if the formation of life on a planet is a very rare event (which is debatable in itself), the probability is not zero. We are on a planet where it did happen. You cannot say that just because it would need longer than the age of universe to be 100% likely to happen on a given planet, that there is any reason to believe it is strange that it happened before then. It's pure chance. We're lucky to exist. 'Life' on the vast majority of planets dies out quickly.

What I'm saying it that just because it is unlikely to happen naturally, that doesn't mean we need to assume some extra-universal being caused it to happen. Simply because the probability was not zero, it was bound to happen somewhere, at some time, in some universe. Who knows how many failed universes came before us? All we know is that eventually, all these chance events happened in a particular order, leading to us being here today, as they inevitably would.

Phew, long post...

The theist and the atheist were arguing.
The theist said , "you are like ablind man in a dark room searching for a black cat that is not there".
The atheist replied, " we are very similar, but you think that you have found the cat".

Brian

Brianwarnock said:

The theist and the atheist were arguing.
The theist said , "you are like ablind man in a dark room searching for a black cat that is not there".
The atheist replied, " we are very similar, but you think that you have found the cat".

Brian

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But surely to a blind man it doesn't matter if the room is dark?

Galaxiom said:

I am quite confident that Socrates never adopted your ridiculous posturing and the personal blasting of those who offered insight of the subject in any discussion regardless of whether he agreed with the position or not..

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It's reaffirming to me that you fail to see the irony in emplying the disparaging phrase "ridiculous posturing", and in the same sentence, the indignant and self-rightous "personal blasting of those who offered insight", without seeing that both these phrases reflect back on yourself.

As far as your overconfidence in you knowledge of the mind of Socretes (as in other matters):

From Plato's Apology, where Plato quotes Socrates.
For those of us who don't know everything and unlike Galaxiom may need a translation:
I'm frankly growing weary of this thread. It has taken up much of my time and I fear I've accomplished nothing. I don't have an eternity, and there is still so much to learn.

Edit:
Old Man Devlin, Bladerunner and others - I would continue to debate this with you - at least you're respectful of other's positions and don't adopt such a supercilious tone - but the concept of infinite universes - I just can't grasp it - how science embraces it, I just don't get. I'm a mechanical design engineer, and fluent in the the language of GD&T (Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing), but as far as distant galaxies and alternate universes in other dimensions, I'm as Socretes - I know nothing.

LOL, Brian. Super.

Old Man Devin said:

Who knows how many failed universes came before us? All we know is that eventually, all these chance events happened in a particular order, leading to us being here today, as they inevitably would.

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Here is a question that scrambles my noodle. In order for there to be previous "failed universes" there must be some form of recursive process or at the very least a concept of incrementation.

How can these concepts simultaneously

a) Exist outside of the group of universes that can be either failed or successful

and

b) Able to be perceived by man within a single one of those successful universes.

The Bible contains a cunning paragraph for people who are having their faith challenged.

Matthew 5:11

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

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Libre said:

It' I know nothing.

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Your signature reminds me of Sgt. Shutz(sic) Do you know who he was?

AccessBlaster said:

@Bladerunner

Did you think being a Christian was going to be easy? While I don't agree with you 100% I appreciate your faith.

If the author had a problem with the direction this thread, he or she would have pulled the plug 1,000 posts ago.
The consent mocking is a tactic. The same people will point out punctuation as a way to derail the conversation it's a bulling technique.

Lastly you know your in for a fight when the left contently presents theory as fact. They have little faith in their own convictions. Keep up the fight.

This sums up the left. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.
W. C. Fields

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Should that be constant mocking and you're in for a fight.?!!

On a serious note why do you assume atheists are lefties, I know that in the States the biggest bible thumpers a right wing gun carrying red necks but that is just part of America's fascinating contradictions, over here religious belief and political leaning are not tied.

Brian

Old Man Devin said:

My responses:
The Universe may be infinite. The evidence is not complete enough to say, but I think it is currently leaning towards an infinite Universe. The calculated size etc. is only the Observable Universe, a small area of the Universe with Earth at the center. We can't see outside it because the light from outside can't reach us (space expanding faster than the rate at which it approaches us, pushing it back). But the rest of the Universe is assumed to be similar to our section, broadly.

The infinite universes idea is simply: in the space outside the universe, sometimes called the 'Quantum Foam', universes are created and destroyed constantly, but a lucky new are not destroyed immediately after creation and expand to become fully blown universes. Sometimes the conditions of expansion happen to allow complex matter to form inside them. Most of the time it doesn't, and the universe is just full of radiation or solid opaque particle blobs.

It does sound somewhat crazy, but it is all a consequence of quantum physics (I did a Masters degree in this).

The resultant argument is that we are in just one of the many expanded universes that is lucky enough to have conditions favourable to complex structures.

I'm not sure what the argument of your final points are. It is actually true that anything can happen. Somewhere in the Universe there can be a planet exactly the same as ours in every way, except JFK is alive. There is no physical reason why that could not happen, as fantastical as it sounds. 100% natural processes could create such a thing, with no supernatural requirements.

Another point to consider is this. Even if the formation of life on a planet is a very rare event (which is debatable in itself), the probability is not zero. We are on a planet where it did happen. You cannot say that just because it would need longer than the age of universe to be 100% likely to happen on a given planet, that there is any reason to believe it is strange that it happened before then. It's pure chance. We're lucky to exist. 'Life' on the vast majority of planets dies out quickly.

What I'm saying it that just because it is unlikely to happen naturally, that doesn't mean we need to assume some extra-universal being caused it to happen. Simply because the probability was not zero, it was bound to happen somewhere, at some time, in some universe. Who knows how many failed universes came before us? All we know is that eventually, all these chance events happened in a particular order, leading to us being here today, as they inevitably would.

Phew, long post...

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If the universe is truly infinite then there exist an infinite number of galaxies and among those galaxies there will be an infinite number of solar systems identical to ours. These solar systems will each contain a planet identical to Earth with people identical to us some of them contributing to a thread on a forum identical to this. There would also be an infinite number of earths differing from ours in only small ways.

It's for reasons like this that I do not believe the universe is infinite - it is just very very large.

Brianwarnock said:

Should that be constant mocking and you're in for a fight.?!!

On a serious note why do you assume atheists are lefties, I know that in the States the biggest bible thumpers a right wing gun carrying red necks but that is just part of America's fascinating contradictions, over here religious belief and political leaning are not tied.

Brian

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We certainly have to be careful not to use a wide brush. That being said, there certainly something to be said for everyday lives experience. My high amount of traveling and intercourse with a great cross section of the population in US and a few others countries, not to mention blogs, forums, emails, I have found that a high percentage of the time the person who is an atheist, agnostics, or non-practicing person of religion is also a liberal in there politics. I have no problem with their position, they are not my enemy personally, but when it come to the ballot box I will fight to defeat what I think is harmful to me my family, my country. I can do no less.

Alisa said:

I just finished reading Dawkins "The God Delusion", in

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I have found this servery very interesting. How do you start a servery? How does it keep tract, or did you have to do it?
DS