Are you an atheist? (2 Viewers)

[Bladerunner]

No. I backed my original statements with science. My reference is to your propensity to simply engage in a personal attack. It is a common technique used by those with nothing substantial to add to a debate.

You quote the rhetoric of an ancient who lived at a time when little was known. The mistake you make is the presumption that it still holds to this day.



Exactly. It is a subject of which you know nothing. There is no shame in that. What is ridiculous s the way you dismiss the knowledge offered by others because you presume your ignorance in a subject for evidence that science and everyone else is equally uninformed.

May I ask a question? How do you know all of this to be true? Mathematical calculations, Physics- Quantum or otherwise,, etc. Is it a theory, fact or just speculation with a ting of truth mixed in with it. I have a background and degree in medical science and try to keep up with the advances of other sciences especially the science that deals with 'Outer Space' our universe. Have we proven there is dark matter yet or is it just a theory conjured up by someones brain on overtime. You tell me there are universe(s), but yet where is the proof. We don't know 10 sec. worth of knowledge about our universe yet we are so sure that we can predict all these events and happenings throughout the universe and beyond all based on mathematical probabilities or physics constants and theories that may or may not apply out there! And we call them the laws of the universe. How, arrogant we are.

Thus, I have a hard time dealing with these probabilities some of you all speak of.
If you were trying to get across a deep gorge and someone told you there was a very good probability there was a bridge across the gorge in front of you, even though you could not see it, would you take that first step. Would it make any difference if they told you that the prediction of probability came from the very best minds in our small small world.?

Have a nice day:>)

Bladerunner

 

[Mihail]

And now I become angry.

99% from the Romanian's hospitals have devices older than 25 years.
Many hospitals have been closed because the money.
But we have a lot of new very big churches. In order to accomplish what ?
To ask the Lord to keep a place for us near He ?
To ask the Lord to take care about our health ? Maybe, while the hospitals can't do this.

Why you, the theists, need this buildings ?
Can't the Lord heard you from yours rooms ?
Can't the Lord see that you are good peoples even if you don't go, Sunday by Sunday, to the church ?
Don't know (or forget) the Lord that everyone need a good health without to ask Him every Sunday ?
Have the Lord some doubts when you ask Him something if this ask is not doubled by a priest ?

etc. etc. etc.......

 

[Bladerunner]

Dick I cannot think of anything in your post that I disagree with, but my point was that in my experience there is no strong relationship between religious belief and political leaning.

Perhaps I need to research U.S. liberalism to see what the complaint against them is, over here the Liberal party want to give our country away to the EU. But so do the other two main parties.

Brian

Brian,I think it depends on how liberal you are. Of course are two kinds of liberals. Fiscal (another post) liberals and Social liberals in the US. As someone said in a previous post, a lot of the people were raise in the church or at least around the Christian religion. As they become liberal enough to fall outside the guidelines they were raised up with, they have to create a break between themselves and their old ways. Atheism is just standing there waiting to be picked up. It lets them step a little bit further to the left sideline without any consequences. I am talking about the quilt consequences that would arise up from within if they were still religious. The liberals who have not ventured that far socially for the most part are religious and still believe in God.

Example: A lot of the ones who believe it is the mothers choice to have an abortion still believe in God even though I call it next to murder since Science has proven without a 'doubt' (have heard that one before) babies become a living organism (being) upon conception.Yet we kill them. 65 million of them in the US since 1995.

Even the hardened atheist know it is not a good thing to kill and innocent person.

Keep in mind that a lot of the liberals her in the US want us to have a social democracy instead of a constitutional democracy Does that ring a bell?
maybe a little Leninist!

Have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

 

[Galaxiom]

Why you, the theists, need this buildings ?

The oppulence of churches is one of the great hypocracies of religion.

Indeed the Lord Himself (according to the Bible) said that it was better to worship in a cupboard than to join the hypocrites who worship in public to be seen to be doing so.

Just another passage of the Bible that the "true believers" choose to ignore.

 

[Bladerunner]

And now I become angry.

99% from the Romanian's hospitals have devices older than 25 years.
Many hospitals have been closed because the money.
But we have a lot of new very big churches. In order to accomplish what ?
To ask the Lord to keep a place for us near He ?
To ask the Lord to take care about our health ? Maybe, while the hospitals can't do this.

Why you, the theists, need this buildings ?
Can't the Lord heard you from yours rooms ?
Can't the Lord see that you are good peoples even if you don't go, Sunday by Sunday, to the church ?
Don't know (or forget) the Lord that everyone need a good health without to ask Him every Sunday ?
Have the Lord some doubts when you ask Him something if this ask is not doubled by a priest ?

etc. etc. etc.......

Mihail: May I ask you a few questions about your situation?

Who pays for your hospitals? are they privately owned?Do they provide Free service? What type of Government is in Romania? Are there taxes there? If so do these taxes go to help the hospitals? Who pays the employees?

A church is simply a meeting place for people of like mind. People give their money (their profit) sometimes their food money to the church for various personal reasons. What does the church do with the money. In a REAL church, that money goes to upkeep the building and grounds and help the surrounding community.

Have you ever considered the possibility of asking the Churches for help or are they like the Hospitals and surrounding community too poor to do anything but keep the doors open on Sunday.

I tend to believe that your country is in financial straits and this carries over to all businesses (profit or non-profit).

Don't blame churches ----- Hey, I heard Australia just built a church for Atheist. I heard it was a big one. What I want to know is ----who do you worship or What?


have a nice day :>)

Bladerunner

 

[Old Man Devin]

Here is a question that scrambles my noodle. In order for there to be previous "failed universes" there must be some form of recursive process or at the very least a concept of incrementation.

How can these concepts simultaneously

a) Exist outside of the group of universes that can be either failed or successful

and

b) Able to be perceived by man within a single one of those successful universes.

It is something that is hard to think about, because in our imagination, outside the universe there must be some kind of space that contains the universe. Unfortunately instead you have to bend your mind a fair bit and understand that reality outside the universe is very conceptual in nature, and does not contain physical dimensions as we understand them.

We cannot perceive it, no. This is impossible. They only way we can grab hints of this outer reality is by the fact that is a) a framework from this the evolution of our universe can be explained b) theoretical modelling to show that how we think it works would be consistent with discoveries in quantum mechanics.

For example, in quantum mechanics, particles can randomly pop into existence for a very short period of time, then disappear again. Space is full of these spontaneous creation and annihilation events. Something similar can happen in the 'quantum foam' outside the universe. Universes pop into existence just because it is something that is possible, and thus must happen eventually. Most of them go away again instantly. But occasionally some "unknown fluctuation" ( A god? ) causes them to break the cycle, much like how in our universe, particles popping into existence can occasionally stay around forever (requires very special conditions!). This is a theory for how universes can be created with no initial cause, but obviously is it very hypothetical, as it is only known in theory, which is true of many pre-big-bang ideas that can't all be correct.

 

[Old Man Devin]

If the universe is truly infinite then there exist an infinite number of galaxies and among those galaxies there will be an infinite number of solar systems identical to ours. These solar systems will each contain a planet identical to Earth with people identical to us some of them contributing to a thread on a forum identical to this. There would also be an infinite number of earths differing from ours in only small ways.

It's for reasons like this that I do not believe the universe is infinite - it is just very very large.

You are right. This exact conversations would be happening again somewhere in reality, if its boundaries are limitless. I don't think its a reason to dismiss the idea. Why CAN'T this exchange happen more than once? It is uncomfortable to think about, sure, but that is no reason to say it must be impossible. We have no reason to believe there aren't infinite incarnations of this forum thread out there in the unfathomable folds of reality!

 

[Old Man Devin]

So what will we find at the edge of the universe? Are there other universes or is it just an end? Emptiness? No atoms, but nothing?

If the universe is not infinite, then it is very likely to be 'round' in the 3D sense. Meaning when you reach the 'edge', you actually just end up back where you started (like in the original Mario Brothers: keep running left and you come out on the right!).

That's the 'physical' edge of the universe, which can only exist somewhere beyond the edge of the 'observable' universe. However we can't know anything about it, because from our viewpoint, the light from the edge of the observable universe is the light from the beginning of time. Outside it, things are so far away that it would take longer than the age of the universe for light to reach us, so we'll never know what's out there unless some serious space travel tech comes along so we can get closer!

 

[Old Man Devin]

Our ant like minds cannot comprehend.

That's basically the problem with all this! Our poor brains, developed to be good at hunting things and teamwork, have no capacity to understand higher dimensions. All we can do is trust the words of the mathematicians who have trained themselves to be able to just partially comprehend reality beyond our everyday experience (or the religious figures who claim the same ability). It's just lucky for us that maths seems to work just fine even for huge extra-universal concepts, giving us some straws of knowledge to clutch at!

 

[Mihail]

@Bladerunner

Mihail: May I ask you a few questions about your situation?

You can ask me anything.
I'll answer you if I know the answer or I'll inform if I don't know the answer.

... are they privately owned?

There are very few private hospitals.

Do they provide Free service?

No. As far as I know this hospitals do no service for free.
The non-private hospitals do (at least in theory) free services when/if the service required is an emergency.

What type of Government is in Romania?

I'm afraid that I don't understand this question.
We have a president. This should be voted, directly, by the majority of peoples in order to become president.
Then he establish a Prime Minister. This guy is usually a men from the main political organization (I don't know the word)
This Prime Minister establish the ordinary ministers, also political guys (as you can see, the country is governed by politicians, not by specialists)
Also, we vote, every 4 years the parliament. But not each man. We vote by groups.
Hope that this help you to make an idea.

Are there taxes there?

Yes. There are taxes in Romania. The greatest taxes from Europe (percent, of course).

If so do these taxes go to help the hospitals?

Yes. A part, of course.

Who pays the employees?

We pay via the taxes.
Not at whole . They (the employes), ask for a lot of extra money from the clients. This is not a legal practice but I never seen a doctor in a jail.

People give their money (their profit) sometimes their food money to the church for various personal reasons.

Here is the same. The main reason being to buy a place in the Heaven.
... Or in Parliament as well. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigi_Becali

But the same peoples cry that they haven't hospitals, that the medical services are too expensive and so on.

In a REAL church, that money goes to upkeep the building and grounds and help the surrounding community.

Have you ever considered the possibility of asking the Churches for help or are they like the Hospitals and surrounding community too poor to do anything but keep the doors open on Sunday.

What ?????? This is like a very good joke in Romania.
What about a women (82 years old) that work half of her life in a factory and now should survive with 250 euros on a month ? No. This is the "happy" part of the story. The sad part is that she buy a house from the Romanian state. With real money from her work.
After 1989 (the year when Romania switch to capitalism) the church ask to recieve that house because, before 1945, that house was in the church's property.
Now, the old women pay money to the church: 50 euros each months.
I know personally this women. But there are many other families in the same situation.

So... to ask the Churches for help ? Should be fullish to expect this from a (Romanian) church.

I tend to believe that your country is in financial straits and this carries over to all businesses (profit or non-profit).

You are right. Should I understand that the Church help the rich peoples ? Hm.

Don't blame churches

It is what I do. Anytime. The Church is the evil. Not the God. Only the church and his employes.
And you, the believers, are the undercover agents of this evil.
Do not misunderstand. I don't blame the theists. Most of you are nice peoples.
But the churches are parts from the Hell.

One more thing about the Romanian priests:
They are, really, employes. They gain salary from the Government.
But try to ask him for a religious service and you will see how much you should pay for that.

So... will be easier for you to convince me that it is a God somewhere than to convince me that the churches are good.

If you have further questions, do not hesitate: ask me.

 

[scott-atkinson]

Galaxiom, Libre,

I can feel the sexual tension between the two of you

Get a room already...

 

[Libre]

Libre,
This is not to knock you, Galxiom, or anybody, so don't take this as attack. Why do you think that your last post is funny.

I don't know, Dick. It just is.

 

[Libre]

Yes, I remember reading about Crane, but don't remember the details. Which character was Pete S.? I don't remember that either

Pete Seeger, who just passed yeserday at the age of 94, was one of the most beloved figures in environmentalism (helped clean up the Hudson River over decades, and so much so that you can once again swim and fish in parts of it), not to mention his wonderful songs (We Shall Overcome, If I Had a Hammer, Where Have All the Flowers Gone?, and many others), and his absolutely beautiful clear and bell-like singing voice. A friend of the GREAT Woody Guthrie, who was also a friend of the common man and an enemy of oppression.
Pete Seeger had the gift of uniting people, making them stand up and sing, making you feel like an old friend, despite the fact that you may have never met him (I never had the honor or the privilage).
I've heard him speak many times, in recorded interviews - and he ALWAYS had something thought provoking and original to say.
Today they are playing his songs and his interviews, because he just passed, and I happened to hear this (paraphrased from memory):
Our ancestors, at some point, walking on two legs, were able to pick up sticks and logs. Once they could do that, they were able to strike at animals, and also their enemies. You see, you and I, we’re all descended from killers, good killers. The ones who were not good killers didn’t have descendants.
Pete Seeger lived in a small town in upstate New York, where he was often seen about town and known to all the locals, and where he had built his own cabin, layed the foundation, hewed the wood himself, and lived there for the rest of his life. He could have used his fame and influence to garner wealth and luxury, but that was not in him.
He was so admired and loved, that his passing yesterday is a bigger event in America, and has caused as much comment in the news, as the President's State of the Union speech.

 

[Libre]

May I ask a question? How do you know all of this to be true? Mathematical calculations, Physics- Quantum or otherwise,, etc. Is it a theory, fact or just speculation with a ting of truth mixed in with it. I have a background and degree in medical science and try to keep up with the advances of other sciences especially the science that deals with 'Outer Space' our universe. Have we proven there is dark matter yet or is it just a theory conjured up by someones brain on overtime. You tell me there are universe(s), but yet where is the proof. We don't know 10 sec. worth of knowledge about our universe yet we are so sure that we can predict all these events and happenings throughout the universe and beyond all based on mathematical probabilities or physics constants and theories that may or may not apply out there! And we call them the laws of the universe. How, arrogant we are.

Thus, I have a hard time dealing with these probabilities some of you all speak of.
If you were trying to get across a deep gorge and someone told you there was a very good probability there was a bridge across the gorge in front of you, even though you could not see it, would you take that first step. Would it make any difference if they told you that the prediction of probability came from the very best minds in our small small world.?

Have a nice day:>)

Bladerunner

Bladerunner - a truly great post. I enjoyed reading it very much, and (if it isn't obvious) I agree.

And also, thank you Mihail for your encouragement to stick around. I think I shall, after all.

 

[Mihail]

I took note when Rabbie made that comment. 4-5 people signed on immediately. But many did not, myself, Galaxiom, Brian, Col, and just about everyone else on this thread....It's wishful thinking, feel good hogwash.

Edit: Maybe they missed it? lol

Thank you AB.
Keep correct me.
Of course that you, and everyone else should do this many times because I can't memory all at the first time. But... step by step...
Thank you again !

 

[Dick7Access]

very good Brian...liked that,,,, here is one for you!

One day the zoo-keeper noticed that the orangutan was reading two books-the Bible and Darwin's Origin of Species.
Surprised, he asked the ape, "Why are you reading both those books?"
"Well," said the orangutan, "I just wanted to know if I was my brother's keeper or my keeper's brother."


Have a nice day:>)

Bladerunner

Love it. I am going to use it next times I preach.

 

[Old Man Devin]

May I ask a question? How do you know all of this to be true? Mathematical calculations, Physics- Quantum or otherwise,, etc. Is it a theory, fact or just speculation with a ting of truth mixed in with it. I have a background and degree in medical science and try to keep up with the advances of other sciences especially the science that deals with 'Outer Space' our universe. Have we proven there is dark matter yet or is it just a theory conjured up by someones brain on overtime. You tell me there are universe(s), but yet where is the proof. We don't know 10 sec. worth of knowledge about our universe yet we are so sure that we can predict all these events and happenings throughout the universe and beyond all based on mathematical probabilities or physics constants and theories that may or may not apply out there! And we call them the laws of the universe. How, arrogant we are.

In defense of scientists here: not knowing one 'thing' isn't going to stop us knowing a different 'thing'. We don't know everything there is to know about dark matter, no. So what? In what way does that invalidate everything that we do know? To find a theory to be correct and thus call it a law is not arrogant; laws of physics are actually unbreakable. It's not that we're saying "we'll call this a law because we think our theories are the best" (arrogance), it's "we'll call this a law because no one has ever found a circumstance in which it is not true" (confidence).

In summary, the world of theoretical physics knows a lot about the nature of the Universe, and there is no reason to fundamentally doubt that knowledge because they are very good at making sure things are correct before making the knowledge public. We can only doubt them when new evidence appears to contradict the status quo, but as we advance, this is going to (and has) happen(ed) less and less. Proof of the scientific concepts discussed in this thread does exist, but isn't really accessible or forum-debate-friendly material.

I guess the main point with regard to the thread topic is that pointing out mysteries in the universe that we don't understand and comprehend and deducing the existence of supreme beings from them isn't a valid step, because for most mysteries there do indeed exist solutions in the natural world. It's always been that way before, and appears to be continuing even as the mysteries grow as large as the universe itself.

 

[Dick7Access]

I don't know, Dick. It just is.

Libre,
Thanks for asking. Here is the answer. If 100 people on this thread said Libre is the smartest guy on this forum. It would not make you one bit smarter. If 1000 people said Libre is the biggest jerk in the world. It would change who you are. You know who you are, the good and the bad. Change the bad to the best of your ability, make the good better. When I first got on this forum for some stupid reason I expected a higher level of debating (on facts) since most here are programers at one lever or another. The mistake was on my part.
Dick S.

 

[Libre]

Libre,
Thanks for asking. Here is the answer. If 100 people on this thread said Libre is the smartest guy on this forum. It would not make you one bit smarter. If 1000 people said Libre is the biggest jerk in the world. It would change who you are. You know who you are, the good and the bad. Change the bad to the best of your ability, make the good better. When I first got on this forum for some stupid reason I expected a higher level of debating (on facts) since most here are programers at one lever or another. The mistake was on my part.
Dick S.

Dick, I admit you had me puzzled by your question. So I answered in my own flippant way.
What people think of me does not change who I am - but if the people I'm hanging out with think my comments have no value or tell me that I'm an ignoramus, and especially when I consider my own thoughts insightful, after awhile I would find other people to hang out with.
I usually try to do my best under most any circumstances.

 

[Bladerunner]

Mihail:

There are people all over the world including in the US that are in the same state as that lady you spoke of in your post.

Would you rather the people give their money to the hospitals and then never get any kind of treatment necessary to save their lives? Would it make it any cleaner to deal with.

I say again, don't blame the church. The church in essence is people who are like the lady you spoke of. its the leaders that should be held accountable if accountability is needed.

If as you say the priest are in the government employee then the government not the church owns the property she once owned. A crooked government!

Again you blame God for man's short comings and blame a church that is full of good people who know nothing about what is going on. Rem. I said a real church. A true church that enhances the body of Christ.
*********
I saw this joke somewhere and still remember the ending part.

Question: Why do Surgeons like to operate on politicians?

Answer: Because they are the easiest people to operate on. There's no guts, no heart, no balls, no brains, and no spine. Plus, the head and the ass are interchangeable.'

Have a nice day:>)

Bladerunner