A Question for Married Couples

[The_Doc_Man]

Colin, I don't know if that was Groucho or not - but it is definitely his style.

 

[lmnop7854]

Next question: Communicate with YOURSELF. Go off into a corner and ask yourself WHY you feel as you do. Ask yourself WHY your sex is going down the tubes. What are you lacking? Having gone through some really intense therapy some years ago because of (herein unspecified) relationship problems from a time before I met my dear wife, I know that examining your own mind is the most painful action one can take when you have a problem.

I am so with you, Doc Man. Most problems in most relationships, no matter what ype of relationship, are caused by individuals being too afraid to look within. It's not easy, and it ain't pretty. But it is SOOO worth it.

Lisa

 

[TessB]

Not to put to fine a point on it Kraj, but I wasn’t insinuating that you should not seek counsel; especially in this somewhat anonymous format.

I was simply wondering out loud about my own desires, and the blessing I have to be in a relationship where both of us confide in the other, about all our fears and desires.

I'm really glad you clarified that. My first instinct was to point out that there are many situations where I find it extremely difficult to share my thoughts and feelings with others..... even my own husband.
Sharing such deeply personal information with someone you care for greatly can be risky. Especially if the other party may find your true thoughts and emotions hurtful or insulting or an outrageous assault on themselves. There's been plenty of times I've kept my thoughts to myself to keep the peace with my husband while I work through my feelings about the situation with a trusted friend.

 

[Rich]

while I work through my feelings about the situation with a trusted friend.

Isn't that what most women do though?

 

[TessB]

Isn't that what most women do though?

Whether most women do that or not, I don't find fault with it.

For those who are so intent on "sharing everything"
Sure, in a perfect, ideal world, which to me, is a FANTASY, I'd love to be able to tell my partner everything and anything and have no offense taken and no ire ensue. That's not the world I live in though!

Hell, it's not the world my husband lives in either. He's said some pretty honest, yet extremely hurtful things to me. They were deeply private thoughts that I wish I never heard. Some things, believe me, are better left unsaid.

Let me put out a fine point on it.... Let's say that my husband suffered some terrible accident that left him horribly disfigured. Am I going to tell this man that I love that the sight of him makes me ill? No way! Sometimes, your private feelings and thoughts WON'T make your partner feel very good about themselves. And, if you're extremely honest with yourself, I bet you can come up with at least ONE thing that you privately think that you would never share with your partner because they might feel hurt, insulted, betrayed, jealous, angry, offended, or rejected on some level.

 

[Rich]

Whether most women do that or not, I don't find fault with it.

I hope you don't think that I do

 

[Kraj]

Once again, thank you all (except one person, I'll get to that in a minute) for your input, support, and excellent advice. There are some things I'd like to respond to and then some things I want to say.

Actually, I have to ask... for my own understanding....

You eluded to the fact that, for you, gratifying sex had a lot to do with a romantic connection. And, without that romantic experience, the enjoyment of the physical pleasures of a sexual experience is thereby diminished in your view? Have I misunderstood?

I'd say that's pretty accurate. Certianly sex can often (hell, even usually) be just about the physical thrill. But sometimes it's supposed to be about expressing the special connection you have. I can have a fun romp with anyone, but no one else can compare to the experience of being with the person I love.

The reason I ask, is.... I'm trying to ascertain the root of the issue. Is it actually a sexual incompatibility, or is it the lack of emotional, romantic ties that is affecting the pleasure of the sexual experience?

I don't think there is any lack of emotional ties. I believe he is still very much in love with me. If he's not, then he deserves an Academy Award.

About compatibility... er, folks: TMI Alert. If this forum had spoiler tags I'd use 'em, feel free to skip this paragraph. Anyway, sparing the gorey details as much as possible, when we first were together our sex life was very vanilla. Over time, he revealed to me his interests in various fetishes. I supported, encouraged and participated in them, but they never were my thing. It's not that I have anything against the things he's into, but they just don't do it for me like they do for him. No problem. Except that as time goes by there's pretty much no vanilla sex that I enjoy occuring and it's all about his interests. Eventaully, I just stopped trying. Consequently I have some fears that he has changed to such a degree that we're just not compatible anymore.

[/TMI Alert]

I think what ultimately concerned me was, as some people pointed out, that sexual problems are often indicitive of other problems. I think I'm worried that the shift I sense in the sexual area is a reflection of us growing apart in general.

The problem with cyclical patterns is each element drives the problem. [...] The way to break out of these cycles is to try and remove one or more of the elements by coming to terms with them.

This is a fantastic point, and it very much applies to me. I'm the type who tends to internalize things and let them bug me rather than express them and let go of them. For the little things, it's not such a big deal. But what ends up happening is the little things build up and make the bigger things seem huge. I'm still trying to get the hang of that balance between holding too much in and constantly ragging on him for every little thing that bugs me.

I would be wary of what I call ultimatum syndrome.

YES! That is the ultimate result of the pattern if I let it run its course. That's another thing I've tried hard to work on, which is expressing things that bother me in ways that give him a chance to respond rather than let it all build up until I just can't take it anymore.

Next question: Communicate with YOURSELF. Go off into a corner and ask yourself WHY you feel as you do.

Tess said it all:

Personally, I don't need someone to ask me introspective questions... I'm quite good at figuring out what my root issues are.

In fact, the way I typically handle a problem is to sit down and identify exactly how I feel and why and what can be done about it. Only then am I ready to communicate with someone. The very reason for this thread is that those answers are unclear and complicated in this situation, and I've been somewhat stymied.

In my situation, I have settled for something not anywhere near as wonderful as I DESERVE. Hope has nothing to do with it. And my individual counseling has helped me see the issues I needed to work through to get to the point where I believe that.

Lisa, this is a wonderful point and an excellent reality check.

Just curious…

Does your partner know about this conversation?

No. And why would he? It would completely defeat the purpose of having this conversation in the first place since it would basically just force me to have whatever discussion I might eventually have with him right now instead of on my terms in my own time.

And ChrisO: There are a great many things I would very much enjoy saying at this moment, but all I will say is the next time you're overcome with sanctimonious outrage over how I conduct my personal life, keep it to yourself. I came to this forum seeking help from friends, not unconstructive diatribes and insults.

I think people have different wants and needs. It seems that your partner is content with the relationship as it is and you are not. So you have to ask yourself, is what is missing a want or a need? That is to say, are you prepared to continue with the relationship without the element(s) you speak of? With love comes sacrifice, as you full well know. So, IMHO, it really depends on whether you are prepared to go without.

Excellent advice here, Dan, and I think it is closely related to Lisa's idea of the difference between what you hope for and what you deserve.

Sometimes a relationship might improve by some outside occurance, beyond control.
In my case, my relationship with my wife ( I’m with her for some 28 years) was deteriorating and than came the big slap ; she appeared to have cancer. Although we got thru very difficult times, she luckily recovered and looking back on that period ( some three years ago), I can only say that the relationship has grown , understanding between us have improved enormously.

I have had a similar experience as well, although our relationship is much younger. To keep an extremely long story short, three years ago my partner went into the hospital with stomache pain and nausea and he was there for five days but they couldn't find what was wrong with him. They ended up doing exploratory surgery to find out what was wrong (and to fix what they thought was a perforated bowel caused by a colonoscopy). When the surgeon saw him for the first time she assessed that he basically was a lost case and came out to the waiting room to give us the "your son is very sick" (aka "the person you love is about to die") speech.

They say that you never know what you have until you've lost it. That day I basically experienced losing him, but thankfully he recovered. I'll never forget how I felt that day.

So folks, my feeling on the situation is that the difficulties we have can be worked through and the relationship we have is more than worth working on. In fact, periods like this one notwithstanding, I think the things I'm feeling are missing from the relationship or not occuring enough to be fullfilling are things I can ultimately live without. There are so many things he does to make me fall in love with him over and over again. If there are things I feel unhappy about and aren't changing enough, I can push a little harder. But at this point there's nothing so bad happening that I'd be willing to give up the good stuff.

 

[dt01pqt]

One other idea that springs to mind. It may or may not apply to you. It is controversial but many couples have found it works. Sometimes you can end up spending too much time together. The idea would be to peruse other interests in balance with seeing each other and make your time together better quality. By other interest I'm talking things that you want to do or try personal development if you like. This requires a certain amount mutual trust and security. Though sometimes you have over-dependant partners who use a relationship as an emotional crutch. Then they probably would resist such an experiment. I'm not suggesting for a minute this is like your relationship. More common is simply the incorrect assumption that if you go off and do your own thing you are somehow going to offend them or betray their trust in some way. Or even it could be down to habit or culture. Either way time apart could be used to build each other self esteem and engage in different social circles and hopefully this should make time together better quality and interesting.

Notice I said different social circles. There is often the wrong assumption when you are a couple that you must share all of each others friends. This goes against human nature. Like it or not some social circles don't mix particularly well on a prolonged basis. As a couple you are likely to have some slightly different preferences and interests when it comes to friends. There are going to be some friends that you both get on with well and other not so much. One of my closest friends was in a predicament. She dreaded spending time with her boyfriend’s friends. Her boyfriend also felt guilty leaving her at home even though she wanted him to go out. She had not made any of her own friends since moving to London with him. That was until she met me. She says she feels more fulfilled and confident in herself now she is able to hang out with the gang, and her boyfriend is no longer guilty about seeing his friends.

One other thing I learnt. Try to avoid using words and phrases like dwindling, deteriorating, spiralling, flame is gone. They imply an impending doom, with no way out. They call this catastrophising. Addressing negative though patterns is a big part of tackling anxiety issues. The reason why is these anxieties may make you act drastically in a way you might later regret. It’s a good exercise to identify you most common negative thoughts and fears then scrutinise them. How valid are they really? Even if they might be true could there be alternative explanations? Is it possible your are seeing the world through tinted glasses?

I would agree that you probably need more fair play in the bedroom, but as other have said it is more than likely an emotional thing.

 

[Kraj]

It's definitely an interesting angle and probably one that most people wouldn't think of. I don't it's the case with us, though. I'd actually say it's more likely we haven't spent enough time together recently. I can elborate if anyone's interested, but I won't do so uneccessarily.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Kraj, a couple of points to consider:

1st - regarding different social circles... Outside interests are how you keep your home life from becoming overwhelmingly boring. I play tennis and bridge. My wife is active in a collector's club and with the Red Hat Society. On the computer, I relax via RPG and 1st-person shooters. Wifey plays various solitaires and surfs the Internet for human-interest articles. Together, we dance, watch movies, shop for the house (an AWFUL lot of that since Hurricane Katrina), and visit with friends/family. Neither of us has to give up our individual activities to still be in love and to bask in our compatibility as we share our common events.

2nd - regarding the TMI segment... Let's not go into how I know this, but there is always the same question when one partner is into styles not shared by the other partner. The "vanilla" partner must always ask the question: Am I loved because of me or because I will play my partner's games and others didn't? In other words, does my partner love the games and I'm just an innocent bystander?

This is one helluva hard question to answer without somehow engaging the non-vanilla partner in a more directed conversation along those lines. And it is a painful question as well, because it goes way beyond the "thrill is gone" type of question. It reaches down into the "thrill was never really there" situation, and that is incredibly painful. You want the assurance that you are loved for yourself but you are terrified of the answer. And that terror occurs because of the old rule, "Don't a question for which you don't want to hear some of the possible answers."

3rd - I'm glad to know you had already engaged in self-contemplation.

The very reason for this thread is that those answers are unclear and complicated in this situation, and I've been somewhat stymied.

But if you still cannot find the answer within yourself, two possibilities remain: (1) You aren't finished with the examination (2) The answer isn't within you, but is external and thus not findable by self-examination. I can only observe that one of these must be true. There is no way to know which one. Only you can answer that one.

I wish you luck in finding the solution. But there is a sub-theme that I see in your responses. You don't want the relationship to end, yet you fear that in some ways it already has. You have to remember that life is based on CHANGE. Sometimes this change is in a good direction. Sometimes it is not. The only thing that is truly constant is death, and that is always in the past tense to truly be constant. So to hear that your relationship has evolved is no surprise.

It is now, and always has been, up to you to evaluate the survivability of the evolved product at every change along the way. Obviously, you have either decided to stay at prior critical points, or you have chose to not decide at all. But then, this falls into the old saw about "not to decide is to decide" and it also falls under the "you get what you accept, not what you deserve" rule.

 

[TessB]

Doc,

I completely concur on your comments regarding the TMI section.
I think I would feel EXACTLY like that. (The non-vanilla person's shoes)

 

[Keith Nichols]

Hi Kraj,

Interesting discussion.

Observation: You say that your sexuality is not relevant to the thread but the title was aimed at married couples? No matter.

In most aspects of life there seems to be a ratio of pleasure to displeasure. Generally, when things are 80/20 or better, the 20 percent of bad stuff is tolerable. If things get below 80% good, then it is time to start thinking about changing the situation somehow. Not necessarily by leaving, mind you, just somehow changing the dynamic, and if that means leaving, then so be it.

If you want to stay in the relationship (and it sounds like you definitely do) and be happy you need to tip your personal scale back over the 80% or whatever level you feel acceptable. This could be by accepting the lack of sexual satisfaction or by addressing it with a view to changing things.

As you seem pretty sure of the soundness of the relationship outside of the bedroom, it seems to me that it is time for serious communication with your partner. I haven't always been good at this in the past, and retrospectively I have recognized that an outside "honest broker" could have mediated a winning outcome to relationships that ultimately failed.

There are many self help books, "relationship therapists" (I have no experience of these), good friends, or "self-knowledge" courses. Some of these could possibly help and it would be for you to decide the most suitable route to take.

My marriage was pretty good but there was a background level of irritation, both ways. We went on a self knowledge course called "Landmark" (I think it would come under the category of "Neural Linguistic Programming"). The take away thing from that was honesty and knowing yourself, not trying to change others. Very useful, to us at least, and interesting although I would say it is not for everyone. Certainly cheaper than a therapist! Since then, the relationship has strengthened considerably but several children down the line, the sex is less frequent and more 'routine'. Might be time to do a bit of maintenance myself!

Best of luck with however you decide to deal with your situation.