Are you an atheist? (2 Viewers)

[oumahexi]

But Danny's already dismissed the role of God in this argument so it only leaves hope.

Or the will to live. Which we are all born with.

 

[Rich]

Or the will to live. Which we are all born with.

Of course

 

[Rabbie]

I don't go along with this , I don't think its hope, I think that it is belief that their God will take care of them if not in this life then in the next.
I sometimes wonder if those of us who donot believe, whether atheist or agnostic, at times envy the certainty of believers.

Brian

I certainly envy believers their certainty. It must be wonderful having the ultimate security blanket. However I just can't buy into their beliefs. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[oumahexi]

I certainly envy believers their certainty. It must be wonderful having the ultimate security blanket.

I don't. It must be like reading a book that you know the end to. I like being on the fence in this debate. When I die, my death will be interesting, I can find out what happens afterwards. So, while I'm not rushing out to provoke it, death is not something to be scared of but something to look forward to At the end of the day, that's really what it's all about. People don't belive in God so that they'll be ok in this life, but so that they don't have to experience a nothingness at the end of it. Who cares if you experience nothingness during it? (Actually I do, that was a retorical question, I'd rather live while I'm alive and let the afterlife take care of itself).

 

[dan-cat]

Ah, I see, so we can now conclude that since belief in a God offers no hope, belief in its existence is pointless, There's many here who came to that conclusion years ago, thanks for your confirmation of that.

I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

In most religions, faith is required, and the onus is on the individual to make that leap for themselves. It's all to do with free will and whatnot.

As an aside, if a placebo has beneficial effects, is it still pointless?

 

[Rich]

In most religions, faith is required,

Faith in what?

 

[dan-cat]

It must be wonderful having the ultimate security blanket.

Actually you could argue that the opposite is true. If you believe in a higher moral authority that must be adhered to knowing that you fall well short of those standards on a regular basis, your shortcomings are constantly being brought into focus.

For the atheist however, there is no great consequence for such shortcomings. No ultimate reckoning at the end of it all. You could argue that it is the ultimate security blanket to believe that anything you do, ultimately means nothing.

 

[dan-cat]

Faith in what?

Faith in the existence of God.

 

[oumahexi]

I'm not sure how you jumped to that conclusion.

In most religions, faith is required, and the onus is on the individual to make that leap for themselves. It's all to do with free will and whatnot.

As an aside, if a placebo has beneficial effects, is it still pointless?

Yet another reason why I'm on the fence here. I don't know where it comes from, but I've seen some very odd things happen with Reiki. Suffice it to say, neither practitioner nor receiver needs to believe, it just works. But how??? Scientific studies have proven that it actually affects the magnetism of the body, which would explain the tingling feeling you may experience from it, but nobody can explain how it actually heals.

If this is the hand of God, it does not require faith, it does not require belief, it just works.

Personally, I think that we are all molecules of the same entity (God, the Universe, whatever you want to call it) and as such, from time to time, we are able to be made aware of other molecules at the other side of what we like to call reality.

Is it God? Is it science fiction? Who knows. One thing I do know, it's fascinating, and, whether you believe or not is totally irrelevant, your point of view is worth voicing.

 

[Rabbie]

Actually you could argue that the opposite is true. If you believe in a higher moral authority that must be adhered to knowing that you fall well short of those standards on a regular basis, your shortcomings are constantly being brought into focus.

For the atheist however, there is no great consequence for such shortcomings. No ultimate reckoning at the end of it all. You could argue that it is the ultimate security blanket to believe that anything you do, ultimately means nothing.

You could argue those things but I was speaking from a personal perspective. I see that a lot of religious people use their perceived moral authority to condemn others and bolster their own position.

And claim the atheist belief has something to do with science - at least faith is honest about the fact that its just faith.

For me I do not have a belief in atheism. I just don't have a belief in god/gods.

 

[dan-cat]

Is it God? Is it science fiction? Who knows. One thing I do know, it's fascinating, and, whether you believe or not is totally irrelevant, your point of view is worth voicing.

Now we're getting closer to my view on the matter

Atheism for me, is, like what others have pointed out, NOT something. It's just a rejection of something, nothing more. So really there is nothing more to say about it. It offers nothing, it gives nothing, you get nothing from it.

Reiki, for you, gives something. It gives fascination and probably the inspiration to seek out the whys and hows of the workings of it. You get this forward momentum from it. The questioning and whatnot. It lifts your head up and forces you to look at bigger things.

Atheism doesn't do anything. It says that's not right and terminates.

 

[dan-cat]

You could argue those things but I was speaking from a personal perspective. I see that a lot of religious people use their perceived moral authority to condemn others and bolster their own position. For me I do not have a belief in atheism. I just don't have a belief in god/gods.

I was just offering another angle for you to look at it from. As you say, both arguments are acceptable.

 

[dan-cat]

But how can you believe, or have faith if you haven't experienced anything to give you that belief or faith?

I'm not sure I understood the question.

Atheism doesn't require anything apart from the lack of...so it creates nothing. It's why I don't base my life on it's principles. It flys in the face of what is actually going on around us constantly, the creation of something.

It all really comes down to interpretation. We are not automatons. So reiki for you may be nonsense for another but it would be foolish of me to claim that your experiences from reiki are pointless.

 

[Rabbie]

Atheism doesn't require anything apart from the lack of...so it creates nothing. It's why I don't base my life on it's principles. It flys in the face of what is actually going on around us constantly, the creation of something.

It all really comes down to interpretation. We are not automatons. So reiki for you may be nonsense for another but it would be foolish of me to claim that your experiences from reiki are pointless.

As far as I am aware there are no principles of Atheism for you to base your life on. I base my life/moral code etc on common sense and belief (perhaps misplaced) that if I behave reasonably then I will be treated reasonably. of course there are exceptions buts that's true for anyone on this planet. Human society has evolved codes of behaviour(such as don't steal,don't kill other people) which work well in small communities but unfortunately break down in larger ones. This is probably because these larger communities have only occurred in comparitively recent times(within the last 5000 years)

One of my main objections to god/gods/religion is that they detract from the wonders of science. I live in a real evolving universe where I can see fascinating things thanks to modern science. I know many religious people also share the wonder of of our universe but unfortunately as it seems to me religion to often tries to water down the shear magnificence of it all.

 

[dan-cat]

As far as I am aware there are no principles of Atheism for you to base your life on.

Well yes precisely. It's not anything to get really worked up about. This very long thread has come about because of the debated plausibility of something.

I'm not sure if you've got anything at all from it. I'll assume something .

That gaining of something didn't come from Atheism. Atheism entirely relies on something else being put forward. It offers nothing by itself, you'll have to go looking somewhere else, ie your common sense for your good self, if you want to glean anything useful.

 

[Pauldohert]

You could argue those things but I was speaking from a personal perspective. I see that a lot of religious people use their perceived moral authority to condemn others and bolster their own position. For me I do not have a belief in atheism. I just don't have a belief in god/gods.

Then you are an agnostic, and not really an atheist?

 

[Alc]

Atheism for me, is, like what others have pointed out, NOT something. It's just a rejection of something, nothing more. So really there is nothing more to say about it. It offers nothing, it gives nothing, you get nothing from it.

Not true.

I have seen nothing to suggest that there is a god. Therefore, I'm an atheist. I didn't sit down and deliberate between the evidence for god and the evidence against. I didn't 'reject' anything, as there was nothing to 'reject'. It's the same for me as applying a name to those of us who don't believe in unicorns.

If I were to suddenly decide that god exists for no reason other than I believe he does, it would require me to change my whole way of thinking.

What atheism 'offers', for want of a better word, is that it allows me to keep the way I understand the world around me constant. To understand, at varying levels, how things evolve, plate techtonics, etc. In order for me to suddenly decide that the world was actually created by an all-powerful magical being would require a total paradigm shift.

 

[fredalina]

Shame you don't have an option for something like: "I believe in God but I do not believe His way is the only way."

 

[Pauldohert]

Not true.

I have seen nothing to suggest that there is a god. Therefore, I'm an atheist. I didn't sit down and deliberate between the evidence for god and the evidence against. I didn't 'reject' anything, as there was nothing to 'reject'. It's the same for me as applying a name to those of us who don't believe in unicorns.

If I were to suddenly decide that god exists for no reason other than I believe he does, it would require me to change my whole way of thinking.

What atheism 'offers', for want of a better word, is that it allows me to keep the way I understand the world around me constant. To understand, at varying levels, how things evolve, plate techtonics, etc. In order for me to suddenly decide that the world was actually created by an all-powerful magical being would require a total paradigm shift.

If you haven't sat down and thought about it, it would seem reasonable to assume you don't know - which makes you an agnostic?

 

[dan-cat]

Not true.

I have seen nothing to suggest that there is a god. Therefore, I'm an atheist. I didn't sit down and deliberate between the evidence for god and the evidence against. I didn't 'reject' anything, as there was nothing to 'reject'. It's the same for me as applying a name to those of us who don't believe in unicorns.

Well fine, you have done even less than rejecting something, you've done nothing.

If I were to suddenly decide that god exists for no reason other than I believe he does, it would require me to change my whole way of thinking.

How so? You haven't deliberated over the subject at all. There is no line of thinking to alter is there?

What atheism 'offers', for want of a better word, is that it allows me to keep the way I understand the world around me constant. To understand, at varying levels, how things evolve, plate techtonics, etc. In order for me to suddenly decide that the world was actually created by an all-powerful magical being would require a total paradigm shift.

It doesn't offer any of those things. Science might. The deliberation over the existence of a magical being has not occured for you. Therefore you have not been protected by anything. The possibility of a magical being has not 'attacked' you.