Hard to Believe

[Alc]

Not to take the thread off topic, but...
(Assuming you're talking about FDR) - you are comparing Nixon to the 2 presidents that started America down the road of public dependance on the government. I'd say Nixon did far less damage to the country than either of those two. So I guess, technically, he was a better president.

Thanks for the opinion (always interesting to hear differing views)

So, according to the initial post, Obama seems to be a bad choice primarily because he has told some lies.

Nixon, from what I gather, was hardly honest AND was caught out, but was a better president than one who ensured that the US became a true world power and another who helped the US come out of the great depression and won a Nobel prize?

 

[FoFa]

McCain a POW?
Doesn't life's experiences pretty much make up who you are? Since he would be the Commander and Chief, I would say having some military understanding would be a plus, specially with Iraq and Afgan. going on in the least. Also having a complete understanding of what could happen to our soldiers, might make his military decisions a little different than someone who would be basically clueless.

Obama's color.
I don't see where it has a bearing, but I am sure many do. But the same could be said for McCains color. Right, wrong or indifferent, it is what it is.

 

[Alc]

McCain a POW?
Doesn't life's experiences pretty much make up who you are? Since he would be the Commander and Chief, I would say having some military understanding would be a plus, specially with Iraq and Afgan. going on in the least. Also having a complete understanding of what could happen to our soldiers, might make his military decisions a little different than someone who would be basically clueless.

His military experience, perhaps, but the fact that he was a POW doesn't mean anything either way. Unless his supporters are trying for the 'sympathy' vote - which seems a tad insulting to the man - I fail to see why it keeps being mentioned.

Obama's color.
I don't see where it has a bearing, but I am sure many do. But the same could be said for McCains color. Right, wrong or indifferent, it is what it is.

McCain - to the best of my knowledge - doesn't get people saying that he isn't really white so you shouldn't vote for him. Once again, if his (McCain) supporters feel that pointing out Obama's ethnicity, or lack thereof, is their best stategy it seems to be doing a huge disservice to McCain himself.

If you were running for president against someone and the people supporting him spent a large part of their time criticizing your race and the fact that you weren't ever held prisoner, wouldn't you feel that it was because they didn't think they could compete on 'real' issues? That may well not be the case, but it would be the impression given.

 

[Mike375]

Back to the two questions, though
1) Do you personally feel that the fact McCain was a POW would have any bearing on how well/badly he'd perform?
2) How would the fact that Obama is only X% black relevant?

Such issues can impact on how you do a job and because of other people. As a small example, several years ago for the first (and last time) I employed a man as a personal assistant. The problem I ran into was that clients assumed because he was a man then he knew a lot more about the products etc and etc. than was/is the case with a woman doing the same job. Thus clients or prospects would ask him questions he could not answer (which reflected back on me) but would not ask a woman the same questions.

Eliminating race, colour, age and gender from the equation is PC bullshit.

 

[Joe8915]

Alc, with McCain being a POW will not add to his performance as a President. As a vet, speaking, I admire what he did, but I can't even say if he is the right man for the job, but on the other hand I can't see Obama being at leader at all. The guy scares me to death, and it’s not that he is black, It’s his behind agenda that scares me. He is a very gifted speaker, like (Jim Jones). If only a majority of people would see that.
Here is the bottom line, I try to stay away from the political discussions, but this next election is going to be a very important one to everyone.
Sometimes you just like to vent a little and this is the year for me I guess.

 

[Alc]

Alc, with McCain being a POW will not add to his performance as a President. As a vet, speaking, I admire what he did, but I can't even say if he is the right man for the job, but on the other hand I can't see Obama being at leader at all. The guy scares me to death, and it’s not that he is black, It’s his behind agenda that scares me. He is a very gifted speaker, like (Jim Jones). If only a majority of people would see that.
Here is the bottom line, I try to stay away from the political discussions, but this next election is going to be a very important one to everyone.
Sometimes you just like to vent a little and this is the year for me I guess.

...and THAT was what I wanted to hear
Thanks for responding in that much detail. As someone from the UK, living in Canada, and blessed(?) with a lot of US election coverage, it's interseting to get other people's views.

 

[sbenj69]

So would you say that the presidents who didn't serve in the military were worse at the job than those who did? For example, did his military service make Nixon a better president than Roosevelt or Wilson?

Nixon pulled us out of Vietnam, if you remember. I do think that presidents that have served in the military tend to be more attuned to national security. Look at Clinton.

I'm not saying that having never been in the military makes you a weaker president. I'm saying, having served in the military, I know a little bit more about how the chain of command works. I can tell if an officer is a colonel in the army, gunny seargant in the marines, luitenant in the airforce, etc. etc. Barrack would rather play basketball than meet with injured troops. (forgive my spelling )

I sincerely believe that Obama will be another Carter.... or Clinton maybe..... as far as national security..... heh, and Carter served in the Navy for 7 years I just don't want a president who is inneficient at commanding our troops. You tell me: Who would the troops rather follow into war? McCain or Obama? After all, they are the ones who have to die for us.

 

[Alc]

Eliminating race, colour, age and gender from the equation is PC bullshit.

Okay, but I still don't see why you'd criticize someone for being a certain percentage black (or white, or whatever). The problem isn't that 'he's black', it's that 'he's not as black as everyone thinks'.

Can you not see that listing that as a reason not to vote for someone comes across as weakening what might be an otherwise rational argument?

 

[redneckgeek]

Thanks for the opinion (always interesting to hear differing views)

So, according to the initial post, Obama seems to be a bad choice primarily because he has told some lies.

They ALL tell lies. Nothing new there. For me, his message of "Hope And Change" has no substance. It's all just lovely platitudes. If anything, his color is HELPING him. Many people will vote for him just so that we can have a black president. As far as experience goes, I doesn't matter to me. I'd rather see a bunch of "inexperienced" people voted in every election cycle. It helps keep the good ol' boy network in check.

Nixon, from what I gather, was hardly honest AND was caught out, but was a better president than one who ensured that the US became a true world power and another who helped the US come out of the great depression and won a Nobel prize?

Wilson was instrumental in the development of the League Of Nations, which eventually became the U.N. Complete and utter failure - unless taking corruption to new highs was their original goal.

I suppose FDR would've been OK, had he not started Social Security, and he'd put a "sunset clause" on the social programs that he started in order to get us out of the depression. Although, I've heard some economists argue that his programs actually lengthened the depression.

 

[Alc]

You tell me: Who would the troops rather follow into war? McCain or Obama? After all, they are the ones who have to die for us.

That one's a bit unfair, as it implies the poor b*stards have a choice.
Whoever gets in, if they give the order to jump, the military has to ask how high. I do see your point though, they may well prefer to follow an ex-soldier.

Take away foreign wars (and after the Iraq debacle I imagine many in the US are keen to do so, military personnel included), is there not a fear that an ex-serviceman may be too focussed on the military side of things at the expense of domestic policy?

 

[Alc]

Wilson was instrumental in the development of the League Of Nations, which eventually became the U.N. Complete and utter failure - unless taking corruption to new highs was their original goal.

But the initial aim was admirable, surely?
Yes, it's become more and more ineffectual, but the founders can hardly be blamed for that.

 

[Mike375]

Okay, but I still don't see why you'd criticize someone for being a certain percentage black (or white, or whatever). The problem isn't that 'he's black', it's that 'he's not as black as everyone thinks'.

Can you not see that listing that as a reason not to vote for someone comes across as weakening what might be an otherwise rational argument?

I can see one problem with him being black or half black or whatever although this problem might be reduced to some extent because of the high positions of Powell and Rice. As a first black POTUS there will be heaps of pressures to bring on changes to cover the last 200 or 300 years.

We had a situation in Australia where the Labor party won gov't after having been in opposition for 23 years and did they go mad to make up for those missing 23 years. When they went out of office it was the biggest landslide we have ever had in Federal election.

If I was an American I would vote McCain because I don't think America (and hence the rest of the world) is ready for a black POTUS. In fact I would break my own rule of the last 15 or 20 years of always voting for the opposition party.

 

[Alc]

I can see one problem with him being black or half black or whatever although this problem might be reduced to some extent because of the high positions of Powell and Rice. As a first black POTUS there will be heaps of pressures to bring on changes to cover the last 200 or 300 years.

We had a situation in Australia where the Labor party won gov't after having been in opposition for 23 years and did they go mad to make up for those missing 23 years. When they went out of office it was the biggest landslide we have ever had in Federal election.

If I was an American I would vote McCain because I don't think America (and hence the rest of the world) is ready for a black POTUS. In fact I would break my own rule of the last 15 or 20 years of always voting for the opposition party.

Fair enough. I remember when Labour finally won power in the UK, after years of Conservative rule. The celebrations were huge, but you don't have to do much searching to find out what people think of them nowadays.

I think this
"As a first black POTUS there will be heaps of pressures to bring on changes to cover the last 200 or 300 years."
is definitely a big problem. If he tries, he's putting 'minority' issues over the rest; if he doesn't, he's a traitor to 'his people'. I do feel he'll be disappointed but quite relieved of he loses.

 

[redneckgeek]

But the initial aim was admirable, surely?
Yes, it's become more and more ineffectual, but the founders can hardly be blamed for that.

I think many saw the obvious flaws and he was warned about them. Could be part of the reason we never actually joined the LON, but he was all for it. He is viewed as our first truly "progressive" president, pushing for many social programs - which ultimately led to much government growth.
Also, he is credited with the starting the income tax. Granted, it was started to help fund the war (which was already being largely done by the sale of Liberty bonds), but it's another thing that should've had a "sunset clause".

FDR just happened into office at an opportune time (for someone with progressive ideas), and contintued running with the ball - with Eleanor prodding him from behind.

 

[Rich]

McCain a POW?
Doesn't life's experiences pretty much make up who you are? Since he would be the Commander and Chief, I would say having some military understanding would be a plus, specially with Iraq and Afgan. going on in the least. Also having a complete understanding of what could happen to our soldiers, might make his military decisions a little different than someone who would be basically clueless.

Obama's color.
I don't see where it has a bearing, but I am sure many do. But the same could be said for McCains color. Right, wrong or indifferent, it is what it is.

Here's a simple solution, bring the troops back home and let them fight amongst themselves, oops, you've already done that, now how many countries are there left. Iran's looking iffy 'cause it doesn't sing American praises eh

 

[statsman]

On the subject of experience:
George W. Bush - Governor of Texas.

George Bush (his father) no federal experience except VP under Regan. However, as Regan didn't die in office, no other experience. Other jobs: President of the Republican Party, Director of the CIA.

Richard Nixon - Vice President under Eisenhower, Congressman

Jimmy Carter - 1 term as governor of Georgia

Bill Clinton - 2 non consecutive terms as Governor of Arkansas

Ronald Regan - Governor of California

There doesn't appear to be any recent President with a great deal of experience at the job (similar jobs perhaps).

 

[redneckgeek]

Here's a simple solution, bring the troops back home and let them fight amongst themselves, oops, you've already done that,

ummm... what?

 

[Rich]

ummm... what?

Yes, it's called the American civil war, didn't you learn about it in school?

 

[redneckgeek]

...bring the troops back home and let them fight amongst themselves...

Yes, it's called the American civil war, didn't you learn about it in school?

[sarcasm]
Yes, the connection should have been obvious to me. You've exposed me as the idiot that I am.
[/sarcasm]

Be a good student and take a lesson or two from Col. Learn how to properly structure a sentence. Maybe your posts would make a bit more sense.

 

[Joe8915]

statsman, good point....but at least they were born and raised in America. I guess I would like to have a true American as President. Now I know I will get a lot of disagreement from this, but that is how I feel.