Are you an atheist? (9 Viewers)

Are you an atheist?


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I have not. I have simply pointed out a correlation that Dawkins originally pointed out. Everyone knows that most correlations are not causal or predictive - I was not implying that this one is. I just think it is interesting.
I don't disagree that common sense isn't common, even or especially among the highly educated. However, I do disagree with your implication that believing in god is common sense.
And by the way, you completely dodged my question to you. I didn't ask whether there were educated or uneducated/intelligent or unintelligent people who did or didn't believe in god. Given this premise:
1. More respondents to this poll have defined themselves as atheists than as believers.
2. Statistically, it is likely that the population of this board as a whole is more intelligent and educated than the population at large.

What conclusion would you draw? Or would you prefer to disagree with the premise? I look at the above and say, gee, I am seeing a correlation here. How interesting.

If I dodged your question then that was unintentional, because I thought I did answer you. 14 people have responded to the poll. If you find a correlation that 7 of those 14 people, on this forum responded to the poll as being atheists and they are intelligent educated people, and you can draw a conclusion from that, then I would just have to say I don't really see one. I'm surprised, on this forum, that the number was not higher and that more folks did not respond, but I really can not put education/intelligence together with a belief in God or not. Also, I was not implying that believing in God in good common sense. What I was implying is that I personally am not impressed with someone that is highly educated or intelligent and just because they are does not mean that because they can talk over someone's head makes them an authority on subject, like this one. Then I went further to say that the major of highly intelligent folks that I have met are void of common senses.
 
I have not. I have simply pointed out a correlation that Dawkins originally pointed out. Everyone knows that most correlations are not causal or predictive - I was not implying that this one is. I just think it is interesting.

I forgot to address this one too. Yes you have "simply pointed out a correlation" and you keep pointing it out. It gives the appearance that you take the same stance as Dawkins but would rather him take the blame for it than you. Maybe I'm reading things into something that is not there.
 
Craig,

That is one awesome post. :)
 
Alisa, where did you ever get the idea that I thought absence of evidence was proof of existence? Are my numerous, explicit clarifications that I was NOT offering any such proof insufficiently clear to preclude you spinning my argument like this? I'm actually a bit cheesed off that you continue to 'respond' to an argument I've never made. So, let me be clear. I agree completely that absence of evidence is not proof of existence. Just like absence of evidence is not proof of non-existence (that such lack of evidence could be construed as an observation that is consistent with the hypothesis of non-existence I would have no problem with....but it is not PROOF of anything, scientifically speaking).
I apologize if I oversimplified your position, or attributed an argument to you that you were not making. The argument I am refereing to here is the argument that the reason that we have no evidence of god's existence is because he doesn't want us to have evidence of his existence.

That's partly because your 'poll' forces all 'believers' to check a single 'extremist' option which is not representative of the beliefs of all believers: like me, for instance. Whereas your poll does allow various shadings and nuances of an athesit viewpoint. I have not checked any option on your poll as a consequence. Hardly a sound survey design to use to draw conclusions from.

Since I provided exactly two options each for the atheists and the believers, and one option for the agnostics, I am assuming that what you take issue with is the wordig of my options, not their number. What wording would you have prefered for the last two options on the poll?

Regardless, corelations are interesting. Have you not considered that atheism is being subliminally TAUGHT by 'higher' education, hence the corelation? Your failure to recognize the philosophic underpinning of science and faith demonstrates all too clearly to me that universities, like medieval monasteries, are teaching a very blinkered and limited approach to understanding the world around you.

Possible.

A second point, is that from a statistical point of view, corellations do not implay causality. You need a regression in order to make that implication.

A point I myself made.

Now as to the rest, we are finally getting somewhere. Once we can agree that god may not or probably doesn't (pick one) exist, we can talk about why religion is so pervasive. You said:
If I am wrong I have harmed no-one, I have experienced comfort in times of despair, I have treated others better, and the world will go on after I am gone deeming me as something of an evolutionary dead-end. You may deem me as delusional to choose to believe there is a hope beyond the battle of life versus entropy. Perhaps I am. But you have no right to choose my beliefs for me, and you have no evidence that you can present to contradict those beliefs. If you prefer to live in world where there is no hope beyond the grave, no higher authority to keep your basest attitudes in check, then good for you. It seems pretty cold, lonely, and pointless to me though.

First of all, you personally may have harmed no-one, however, the greatest evils of human history have been committed in the name of god. That is why I argue and continue to argue with people who claim it is there right to believe in god. Your belief in god supports the propogation of religous belief, the same way a virus propagates through a host carrier. You may claim that only religous extremists are dangerous. I disagree. If belief in god were not common and accepted throughout the world, extremism would not develop.

Secondly, I do not have "hope" for life beyond the grave, and yet my life is not cold, lonely, or pointless. I also think that you will find that there are plenty of atheists who are happy, and plenty of believers that are unhappy. If you do have hope for life beyond the grave, then why do you not rejoice at death? As I have said before, good people will do good things regardless of the presence of religion - all people are moral creatures. I do not require a higher authority to act morally. And in fact, as a whole, religion has the the net effect of inducing immoral behaviour, not moral behaviour.

And if I’m right, then someday there’s a chance I’ll be reunited with my mother and get to ask her the unresolved questions I will have in my heart for the rest of my life. There’s a chance I’ll get to play with my perfect rotten-dog Libby again. Maybe I’ll get to introduce my grandparents to my lovely wife who they never got to meet. And maybe I’ll have my existence validated by my creator. Don’t get me wrong, I live a comfortable life. But to think I served a purpose, that my life was an intended and welcome outcome to the creator of the entire universe, well, that would mean a lot to me.

If you think that heaven really exists, then don't you think you would get to go there just by being a good person? In which case, it wouldn't matter whether you believed or not? I realize that christianity preaches belief above all else - you must be a good believer in order to get into heaven. But does that really make sense? Why would god care whether we believe in him or not? Wouldn't he care more that we were being good, if he cared about us at all? If there really is an afterlife, wouldn't that make our life on earth LESS meaningful, not more meaningful (after all, the afterlife is eternal, right?, while our life on earth passes in mere seconds. I think that my belief that there is no afterlife makes my life more meaningful - this is all there is, so I better enjoy it while it lasts.
 
Yes you have "simply pointed out a correlation" and you keep pointing it out.
That is not true - you (and others) are the ones who keep bringing it up. The only time I brought it up was in the original post. I have just been responding to others in all subsequent posts.

What I was implying is that I personally am not impressed with someone that is highly educated or intelligent and just because they are does not mean that because they can talk over someone's head makes them an authority on subject, like this one.

First of all, I do not claim to be more intelligent than average, I am not highly educated, and I never claimed to be an authority on any subject, including this one. I think you are trying to turn this discussion into a flaming session and I don't appreciate it.
 
Imaginary numbers are a useful concept that mathematicians use. Nobody claims that they exists, that is why they call them imaginary. And I don't see how that is relevant to this conversation, unless you propose to start calling god your imaginary god.

I responded directly to your post were you call it an imaginary God (unless you think God is real), and dismiss the imaginary as in someway lacking. But you have faith in, believe, science that has imaginary numbers running though it. The two seem to be at odds. If its allowed for one its allowed for the other?

And yes option 1) would seem to be against what you are argueing, ie no evidence would convince them. I thought evidence was important for those who didn't have faith. Seems you think an intelligent response is one which has the same conclusion as you. (even if was arrived at by methods you refute - ie ignoring evidence)
 
If belief in god were not common and accepted throughout the world, extremism would not develop.

This argument is hopelessly flawed.

Please tell me that you are aware of past secular regimes that can be easily classed as extremist.
 
So my original question stands. If we have no evidence, then what is the benefit of YOUR default position (the supernatural exists) over mine (I freely admit that we do not have the answer for everything)?

And by the way, evolutionary theory does not claim to explain how life began. It explains how life evolved once life existed in the first place. I never claimed to be able to explain how life began.

Alisa....I said the vast majority of very successful sales people are "believers". Not 51%, not 61%..way above and as you know there is virtually no other occupation that can so directly equate results as in the some of the sales areas. This is not a default position....hard cold numbers.

Evolution is promoted as life will commence if the conditions exist. Obviously "evolving" can only apply to what exists but evolution is promoted as the complete package.
 
That is not true - you (and others) are the ones who keep bringing it up. The only time I brought it up was in the original post. I have just been responding to others in all subsequent posts.



First of all, I do not claim to be more intelligent than average, I am not highly educated, and I never claimed to be an authority on any subject, including this one. I think you are trying to turn this discussion into a flaming session and I don't appreciate it.

That is absolutely what I am not trying to do and if I was then I could see why you would not appreciate it, but that is not my intention. I feel like I am answering you questions. I thought I was making a point of intelligence vs believing in God. In no way was I implying anything to you personally nor did I mean for you to take it that way. I'm just trying to make the point that for me personally, I do not see nor put stock in someones intelligence or education being the end all of whether I believe in God or not.
 
That is absolutely what I am not trying to do and if I was then I could see why you would not appreciate it, but that is not my intention. I feel like I am answering you questions. I thought I was making a point of intelligence vs believing in God. In no way was I implying anything to you personally nor did I mean for you to take it that way. I'm just trying to make the point that for me personally, I do not see nor put stock in someones intelligence or education being the end all of whether I believe in God or not.
I am sorry that I took your response personally. I take back my response. I never stated, nor do I believe that the correlation I pointed out was causal - is it just an interesting correlation, and as somebody pointed out, not really directly relevant to this conversation. I already explained why I wrote the original post - this aspect of it was just a hook to get people interested. I think we should agree to agree about this issue and let it rest.
 
I am sorry that I took your response personally. I take back my response. I never stated, nor do I believe that the correlation I pointed out was causal - is it just an interesting correlation, and as somebody pointed out, not really directly relevant to this conversation. I already explained why I wrote the original post - this aspect of it was just a hook to get people interested. I think we should agree to agree about this issue and let it rest.

Thanks Alisa, I appreciate it. The thing that I have found interesting about this thread is the very intelligent communication back and forth, which has been very impressive, (I think some of you guys have a buzzing noise going at all times that is coming from your brain spinning so fast) but when it's all said and done, all the post, over several days with excellent points made on both sides of the fence, everyone is still where they were before all this started.

BTW, good thread Alisa. Everyone has stayed very civil on a very passionate subject. Way to go guys.:D
 
Alisa....I said the vast majority of very successful sales people are "believers". Not 51%, not 61%..way above and as you know there is virtually no other occupation that can so directly equate results as in the some of the sales areas. This is not a default position....hard cold numbers.
So salespeople are religous. So what? Can you prove that atheists are less successful as sales people? If so, can you prove that they are less successful BECAUSE of their atheism? That is a rhetorical question, the answer is no. And even if you could, which you can't, I am not sure that being a better salesperson is such a noble goal that it would justify belief in the supernatural by itself. Because you keep bringing it up, I guess you can't think of any other benefits of belief in the supernatural.

Obviously "evolving" can only apply to what exists but evolution is promoted as the complete package.
Only by people who don't understand evolutionary theory.
 
Please tell me that you are aware of past secular regimes that can be easily classed as extremist.
Are you talking about Hitler? In any case, my statement was too broad. What I should have said is that without religous division, the extreme hatred of other groups, such as the hatred that has spurred all great conflicts throughout human history, would not have developed. Lets assume you are talking about Hitler. Hitler may or may not have been religous - he was raised catholic but made a lot of conflicting statements throughout his life. In addition, WWII was not conducted in the "name" of a particular god. However, those facts are meaningless when you consider that Hitler's followers WERE religous, they were christians. Did their religous beliefs prevent them from committing atrocities? Furthermore, do you think they could have rationalized those atrocities if the persecuted, in this case the Jews, shared their religion? How would they have known who to persecute if not for their different religion?
I stand by my original argument, which is that extremism of all kinds depends on groups being identified as "other". That "other" definition always comes down to religion one way or another. If you would like another example of a war that is not conducted in the "name" of one god, but nonetheless depends on conflicts between religions to continue, look at the current war that the U.S. (with help from other parts of the christian world) is waging in Iraq. They may call it a war on "terror", but truly what you are watching is a religous war between the muslim and the christian world.
 
Thanks Alisa, I appreciate it. The thing that I have found interesting about this thread is the very intelligent communication back and forth, which has been very impressive, (I think some of you guys have a buzzing noise going at all times that is coming from your brain spinning so fast) but when it's all said and done, all the post, over several days with excellent points made on both sides of the fence, everyone is still where they were before all this started.

BTW, good thread Alisa. Everyone has stayed very civil on a very passionate subject. Way to go guys.

Thank you as well. I am completely amazed and delighted that this thread has been able to survive this long without devolving in a burst of flames, despite the occasional misguided comment here and there.
 
Alisa, I want to discuss your comment in two parts.

First of all, you personally may have harmed no-one, however, the greatest evils of human history have been committed in the name of god.

What has been done 'in the name of God', by people, has also been abhorant to me. The crusades, the spanish inquisition, the current use of religion to discriminate against people who are gay, the 'religious' war between catholics and protestants in ireland, the list is pretty long. But stop and think about it. Do you really think all these were driven by faith in God, or by other darker motivations that exist in the hearts and minds of men regardless of belief in God, and religion was twisted and used as a more palatable motivation for the gullible masses?

Let's take just one of those events and analyze it. Consider the first crusade in its historical context. After centuries of viking raids and terror throughout europe, the viking threat had recently ended. The vast numbers of trained militia men and 'knights' who had been recruited and trained to combat the viking menace were left without anything to do except boring guard duty. History shows that incidences of violence by these trained fighters against helpless peasants and unarmed monks/monasteries escalated hugely during this time period. The church intervened by using their influence to try to reign in the bad behaviour (for example, there was a meeting of many of these fighter's leaders where the gathered relics of hundreds of 'saints' were used as witnesses to force many of the troublemakers to pledge not to commit such violence). However, the problem of thousands of armed, dangerous men with nothing to do throughout europe remained and it would undoubtedly have continued that way for decades to come. The first crusade, in my opinion, was more truly conceived as a solution to the vexing question as what to do with all these soldiers in the absence of the viking threat, as well as an opportunity for the church to plunder wealth and increase their worldly power. Sure it was clad with all the trappings of religion, but to say this was solely the result of a belief in god is vastly over-simplistic. There's a canon in science that says 'Seek simplicity but distrust it'. I say blaming religion itself for the actions of mankind is a convenient soundbite that has little relation to reality. Get rid of religion and people will still behave abominably toward each other.

Do you really think that an atheistic world won't obtain some moral lesson about right and wrong from evolutionary theory in the absence of religion? Here's one that conforms to such a worldview (but is abhorant to me). ra** is a valid method to increase the chances of engendering offspring by males. There's no real cost to it from a parental investment standpoint for the male. The only negative to it is the socially-mandated punishment for what is deemed to be morally wrong. Reduce morality to evolutionary expedience and social opposition to ra** is reduced only to women who have to suffer the consequences of the behaviour. (Please, do not think for one second that I'm supporting this idea but it makes sense for males from an evolutionary viewpoint). What about blind nationalism? Rascism? Tribalism? Greed? Lust for Power? You don't think these will go away just because you've dispelled the concept of God do you?

People commit atrocities for many reasons: religion often gets used as a screen but the essence of mans inhumanity to man stems from our own greed and stupidity.

For myself, I strongly believe in the separation of Church and State and this is my response to the issue you've mentioned. My reasons for this are not to protect the state from religious influence, but rather to protect my faith from the corrupting influence of worldly power. Whenever worldy power, wealth, and authority are on offer they draw in people who are motivated by these things. God doesn't need worldly power. Jesus rejected it. Who the heck are we, as believers, to take up that mantle instead of following his example? The problem with the church today, and historically, is that so many of its leaders are truly wolves in sheep's clothing.

That is why I argue and continue to argue with people who claim it is there right to believe in god.

Alisa, I'm sorry, but this comes across to me as if you don't think anyone else has the right to believe as they wish (if their opinion differs from yours). As a matter of principle, this is no different than the religious right-wingers forcing their opinions on Gay rights down the throats of everyone else. Dangerous territory, Alisa. Morally, you're only one step away from using force/politics/education to enforce your worldview on others. Arguably, folks like Dawkins have already crossed that line with respect to education.
 
What has been done 'in the name of God', by people, has also been abhorant to me. The crusades, the spanish inquisition, the current use of religion to discriminate against people who are gay, the 'religious' war between catholics and protestants in ireland, the list is pretty long. But stop and think about it. Do you really think all these were driven by faith in God,

Which God are you referring to?:confused:
 
Craig, I am not going to quote from your excellent post but I must say that i am in complete agreement with you on the need for tolerance. I also agree as I have said in previous posts that I think the problems with organised religion are because they are human institutions with human faults. Unfortunately the virtues attributed by them to divine inspiration seem mostly conspicuous by their absence.

Where we differ is in the belief of an afterlife. I would dearly like to think I will see loved ones again but I cannot think this will happen. For me religion, faith, whatever seems like a comfort blanket but they only work if you believe in them.

By saying this I do not mean to be disrespectful of your beliefs but I am satisfied that I can explain my environment in terms of rational science and that supernatural influence is an unnecessary ingredient.
 
Rabbie - well said .. total agreement with you on this ..
 

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