Continued theology discussion... Not sure what to call this really....

Rich said:
So if Hitler accepted Christ on his deathbed would he be offered eternal Life etc.?
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I beleive that is what orthodox Christianity says. Of course his repentance of his sins would have to be genuine
 
Adam Caramon said:
If I was a Christian, I think I would study that book every day and every night, even carrying one of those pocket-sized books around with me. I would be terrified that I was missing something otherwise.
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Doesn't Gideon still provide this free service?:confused:
 
Rich said:
Who said god actually ordered this?:confused:
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Just one example:

Numbers 31:1-3, - The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people." So Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vendeance on Midian."

Numbers 31:7, - They warred against the Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every male.

As I said, This is just one example, quickly looking through my Bible while at work. As far as what they were avenging for, I don't know I didn't have time right now to read the whole thing.
 
Kryst51 said:
Just one example:

Numbers 31:1-3, - The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people." So Moses spoke to the people, saying, "Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vendeance on Midian."
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Doesn't sound like the actions of a merciful Father to me:confused:
 
Adam Caramon said:
Feel free not to answer if you feel this will open up a can of worms, but out of curiosity, does it scare you at all that the bible you read today might be radically different from what was written long ago?

I know a lot of people who I consider good people, they also happen to be Christians, but they really don't know much about the bible. They go to church, and they listen to the pastor, and they think of themselves as religious people, but if you mention specific parts of the bible, they rarely know what it is.

If I was a Christian, I think I would study that book every day and every night, even carrying one of those pocket-sized books around with me. I would be terrified that I was missing something otherwise.
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No problem in answering. No it doesn't scare me but with that being said I am not one that believes that any of the translations that we have are perfect. What I do hang my hat on is the original manuscripts. With that being said, I am going to have a problem cause A. I can't read from the original manuscripts cause I don't know the language nor can I get my hands on any of them, so I personally try to pick translations that I feel the authors were very serious about getting it as correctly as they could, but even getting to this point, there are still problems because I only know English so when these original manuscripts get translated from Greek, Hebrew to English, these languages are so much more descriptive than English so some things can get lost in the translation so I try to take it one more step and that is to not only read the Bible but study it also. I use as many tools as I can that will aid me in diving into to the original language and get as much out of it as I can with my limited resources.

As far as the manuscripts being written so long ago. While this part is true it really doesn't concern me much cause we (mankind) have found so many manuscripts and partial manuscripts that I believe we have enough to compare off of each one found to make sure that what we are getting is accurate. From what I can gather mankind has found thousands of these manuscripts and each time they find a new one they compare it to the others found for an accuracy rating. The accuracy rating, from what I can gather, is somewhere in the high 90 percent range, so I feel pretty confident that what I am reading is accurate.

Lastly, you knowing folks that claim the name but really don't know much about the Book they claim to love. Unfortunately, this is the case far too often. I think especially in America. It's almost like a heritage thing. They were raised here, very exposed to it, so therefor they claim something they really know very little about. Sad testimony. My Dad used to say "just because a cat is born in an oven doesn't make it a biscuit anymore than a person being born into a Christian family makes them a Christian."

Hope I came close to answering your question. If I didn't, I sure used a lot of words to get nothing said.:p
 
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Rich said:
Doesn't sound like the actions of a merciful Father to me:confused:
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No it doesn't but it does sound like a perfect Judge. God is made up of many attributes. Mercy is one of them but so is judgment. Love is one of them but so is wrath. As one of your fellow countrymen said in the reformation time, "If you do not know God as your loving Father, you will know Him as your rightful Judge." Not everything God does is merciful, loving, or of grace. There are times that He is angry with the wicked and places judgment on them. The difference with Him being, He does all of them perfectly.
 
ShaneMan said:
My Dad used to say "just because a cat is born in an oven doesn't make it a biscuit anymore than a person being born into a Christian family makes them a Christian."
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haha. That's a good one. I've often heard the term "CEO Christians", meaning: Christmas and Easter only Christians :p

ShaneMan said:
Hope I came close to answering your question. If I didn't, I sure used a lot of words to get nothing said.
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You did. I appreciate the explanation.
 
ShaneMan said:
No it doesn't but it does sound like a perfect Judge. God is made up of many attributes. Mercy is one of them but so is judgment. Love is one of them but so is wrath. As one of your fellow countrymen said in the reformation time, "If you do not know God as your loving Father, you will know Him as your rightful Judge." Not everything God does is merciful, loving, or of grace. There are times that He is angry with the wicked and places judgment on them. The difference with Him being, He does all of them perfectly.
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I find this image of God hard to reconcile with the God that Jesus describes. There is an instant in the gospels where Jesus says to his audience "Which of you would give his child a stone if he asks for a fish" andthen goes on to say that God will treat our requests in the same way.

I am sure that if there was a God who loved us He would not allow so many innocent people to be killed and maimed in earthquakes etc.
 
Rabbie said:
I find this image of God hard to reconcile with the God that Jesus describes. There is an instant in the gospels where Jesus says to his audience "Which of you would give his child a stone if he asks for a fish" andthen goes on to say that God will treat our requests in the same way.

I am sure that if there was a God who loved us He would not allow so many innocent people to be killed and maimed in earthquakes etc.
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Hey Rabbie, it's been awhile. I don't disagree about the image being hard to reconcile. For me, it is always so hard to get into this over typed words. Too much to say and so much can be taken wrong. Conversations are always easier. I don't think we can take the verse you quoted and have that cancel out God's judgment. If that verse stays in context, then we would see that Jesus is referring to something that I don't think applies to God's judgment, but it would refer to His benevolence.

As far as God's love and earthquakes. One way that I think this can be answered is that God did not interfere with the earthquake and I think one of the reasons "could be", we (mankind) do not want Him interfering in our lives on a daily basis and certainly do not want a God (if there is One) telling us what to do and how to run our lives, so to a large degree He gives us what we what. No interference. Another explanation could be, original sin. Theology tells us the day Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God pasted a curse on man, woman, serpent, and earth. Now that curse runs it's course. Earthquakes being one of those things and God did not stop/interfere with it. Last could be, God doesn't look at this life quite the same as we do. If there is an after-life and eternity, then He would be much more concerned with that than what happens in this life. If these folks were truly "innocent" then they will spend eternity with Him, provided He does exist and is capable of doing that. Could be all of the above and then some.

I truly believe there are answers to these tough questions and "for me" I am satisfied with the explanations. I also believe it is hard for anyone to make much of a point, over the internet. I have thought often, that I would like to meet some of you guys, someday, and have a long conversation over tea/coffee and let me just listen to what you have to say on this subject. I did get the privilege of meeting Brian and his wife and having supper with them but it wasn't a subject we got into.
 
When I was still a practicing Methodist, I got into a discussion of that type. God's kingdom is not of this world. Well, Jesus said His kingdom wasn't, anyway, and he was going to be at the right hand of the father.

What happens in this physical world isn't important to God. Earthquakes and hurricanes aren't punishment. They just happen. It is how we handle such things that make the big difference.

Of course, my views have changed since I lost my faith. (No, I'm not looking for it...) And in my new viewpoint, the earthquake or a hurricane aren't acts of God. They are accidents of nature. So again, God didn't send that stuff as punishment. Either way, the folks who say "Goddidit" as punishment are just full of it. Like Pat Roberston, clearly one of the most annoying persons I've ever heard on the news.
 
The_Doc_Man said:
When I was still a practicing Methodist, I got into a discussion of that type. God's kingdom is not of this world. Well, Jesus said His kingdom wasn't, anyway, and he was going to be at the right hand of the father.

What happens in this physical world isn't important to God. Earthquakes and hurricanes aren't punishment. They just happen. It is how we handle such things that make the big difference.

Of course, my views have changed since I lost my faith. (No, I'm not looking for it...) And in my new viewpoint, the earthquake or a hurricane aren't acts of God. They are accidents of nature. So again, God didn't send that stuff as punishment. Either way, the folks who say "Goddidit" as punishment are just full of it. Like Pat Roberston, clearly one of the most annoying persons I've ever heard on the news.
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For me personally, I wouldn't go so far as to say what happens in this world is not important to God, on the other hand, I am certainly not in agreement with Pat Robertson or anyone that agrees to that sort of thinking.
 
Then let me clarify, Shane, because I respect you and don't want it to come off as an insult or radical disagreement.

From my days as a Methodist:

God doesn't punish us physically on this world with disasters and won't as long as there are rainbows. (You know the reference.) According to Christian teachings, God cares about what is in our hearts and how we treat each other. Disasters may bring out the worst or the best in us, but they are not created by God for testing purposes. So to clarify, God doesn't care about the physical things that happen in this world. That stuff happens. God cares about what we do with the hand we are dealt. And Pat Robertson, for what he said, is an absolute schmuck.

Does that make my original statement better by your understanding?

Shane, I'm not ashamed of being atheist but I respect that your belief differs from mine and I like you. So I'm not going to try to drag this out into a protracted argument.
 
The_Doc_Man said:
Then let me clarify, Shane, because I respect you and don't want it to come off as an insult or radical disagreement.

From my days as a Methodist:

God doesn't punish us physically on this world with disasters and won't as long as there are rainbows. (You know the reference.) According to Christian teachings, God cares about what is in our hearts and how we treat each other. Disasters may bring out the worst or the best in us, but they are not created by God for testing purposes. So to clarify, God doesn't care about the physical things that happen in this world. That stuff happens. God cares about what we do with the hand we are dealt. And Pat Robertson, for what he said, is an absolute schmuck.

Does that make my original statement better by your understanding?

Shane, I'm not ashamed of being atheist but I respect that your belief differs from mine and I like you. So I'm not going to try to drag this out into a protracted argument.
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Thanks Doc on both accounts. For the explanation and for not dragging it out. The respect is mutual. Also, I appreciate you not being ashamed of what you believe, or don't believe :) We can always agree to disagree and remain civil and friendly.
 
This is what really pisses me off about religion:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8492597.stm

In particular:

"Religious leaders have voiced concern that the Equality Bill may force churches to employ sexually active gay people and transsexuals when hiring staff other than priests or ministers."

If you tried to exclude a christian on the ground of their belief and these people would be in uproar but they want to be able to discriminate against others on grounds of sexuality and anything else that their book of nonsense tells them is "wrong".
 
chergh said:
If you tried to exclude a christian on the ground of their belief and these people would be in uproar but they want to be able to discriminate against others on grounds of sexuality and anything else that their book of nonsense tells them is "wrong".
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But being a queer is not a belief.
 
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