Guantanamo Bay

[ShaneMan]

Yes, logical conclusion

and what is the logic to your conclusion? I guess we should believe the folks who say the holocaust never happened too, right? Their logical conclusion is it didn't happen.

 

[Rich]

and what is the logic to your conclusion? I guess we should believe the folks who say the holocaust never happened too, right? Their logical conclusion is it didn't happen.

The evidence for the holocaust is irrefutable. However even in todays modern world there are those who have survived being pronounced death

 

[ShaneMan]

The evidence for the holocaust is irrefutable. However even in todays modern world there are those who have survived being pronounced death

Have you ever read historical accounts of a Roman crucifixion?

 

[Rich]

Have you ever read historical accounts of a Roman crucifixion?

We're talking about one specific case, and not events in general

 

[ShaneMan]

We're talking about one specific case, and not events in general

I realize that, but I think it does factor in though. A man would not and did not live through a Roman crucifixion. The stakes were too high for the soldiers for them not to make sure they were dead.

 

[Sum Guy]

Crucifixion was an especially grusome death and was reserved by the Romans for especially nasty criminals. It was a public example of what happens when you mess with Rome.
One of the reasons Jesus was sent to Pilate to be judged was because the Jewish powers thought Jesus' preachings were dangerous to their positions and they wanted him crucified. Only the Roman governor could order it.
A later example of the same principle was "Hanged, drawn and quartered" which the British invented to replace the beheading of traitors.

Having gone to all this trouble, even if the Romans didn't ensure Jesus was dead, the Jewish elite would have made certain of it.

 

[Alc]

A man would not and did not live through a Roman crucifixion. The stakes were too high for the soldiers for them not to make sure they were dead.

[Quote = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion]
"It was, however, possible to survive crucifixion, and there are records of people who did. The historian Josephus, a Judaean who defected to the Roman side during the Jewish uprising of AD66 - 72, describes finding two of his friends crucified. He begged for and was granted their reprieve; one died, the other recovered. Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of crucifixion before their reprieve."
[/Quote]
Not saying this happened to Jesus, but if you were looking to create a mythology or religion - for want of a better word - around an individual, saying that he died and came back would be a lot more memorable than saying he wasn't actually dead when he was put in his 'tomb'.

 

[ShaneMan]

[Quote = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion]
"It was, however, possible to survive crucifixion, and there are records of people who did. The historian Josephus, a Judaean who defected to the Roman side during the Jewish uprising of AD66 - 72, describes finding two of his friends crucified. He begged for and was granted their reprieve; one died, the other recovered. Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of crucifixion before their reprieve."

Not saying this happened to Jesus, but if you were looking to create a mythology or religion - for want of a better word - around an individual, saying that he died and came back would be a lot more memorable than saying he wasn't actually dead when he was put in his 'tomb'.[/QUOTE]

I understand but was making a point in a different direction. These two men survived only because a Roman official stepped in and stopped it (which was rare). If this did not happen then a Roman soldier carried out the orders given to him and if he did not then they were put to death. In Jesus case, the orders went a different direction. The law was that no one was to put to death on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was coming up so the order was given to brake the mens legs to speed death up. When they came to Jesus, He appeared to be dead already so they thrust a spear in his side, blood and water flowed from the wound and reassured them He was dead.

 

[Rich]

blood and water flowed from the wound and reassured them He was dead.

Am I missing something, does it flow from a dead body?

 

[ShaneMan]

Am I missing something, does it flow from a dead body?

The water part in the significant part. I am sure I can not explain it properly but for water (which is more of a bodily fluid usually called bile) to have flown out of the wound also, is an indication of death. If you receive a wound blood will certainly flow but if there is bile mixed with it then it would be an indication that you are also dead. When Pilate asked for a sign that Jesus was dead this was exactly what the Roman soldier reported and Pilate was then assured that he was dead. Sorry I'm not any better at explaining than this.

 

[Rich]

But according to previous posts a soldier wouldn't dare report anything other than that he was dead....

 

[ShaneMan]

But according to previous posts a soldier wouldn't dare report anything other than that he was dead....

Most likely so, but he would have had to have had all other soldiers and eye witnesses, that were standing there, to go along with his lie.

 

[Rich]

Most likely so, but he would have had to have had all other soldiers and eye witnesses, that were standing there, to go along with his lie.

How many other soldiers and eye witnesses ?

 

[ShaneMan]

How many other soldiers and eye witnesses ?

If your looking for an exact number, then of course I can not provide that. Jesus was not the only one that was being crucified that day. There had to have been multiple soldiers there. Same for the eye witnesses. It's recorded that Jesus spoke to various people in the crowd, so there had to have been folks watching.

 

[Rich]

Well let's start the examination in depth, how many were close enough to examine the bodily fluids, where were they stood in the crowd, what side of the victim were they stood, did they have telescopes how many had the skills required to examine the fluids?

 

[Brianwarnock]

Why are you wasting your time Shane? I may not follow or believe in any religion but that is on todays evidence/happenings not on a facetious argument over what did or did not happen centuries ago.
If you answer these last questions Rich will want to know how high the cross was , how tall the soldier reported to have put his spear in Jesus's side, how long the spear , could he have reached etc etc.

Brian

 

[ShaneMan]

Well let's start the examination in depth, how many were close enough to examine the bodily fluids, where were they stood in the crowd, what side of the victim were they stood, did they have telescopes how many had the skills required to examine the fluids?

I guess you could start an examination that way but at the same time you know it would be impossible to come to a conclusion. However, you could look at the reaction of his disciples and followers, the folks who prepared His body and the Jewish leaders. None of these folks reactions was anything but He's dead.

 

[Rabbie]

Why are you wasting your time Shane? I may not follow or believe in any religion but that is on todays evidence/happenings not on a facetious argument over what did or did not happen centuries ago.
If you answer these last questions Rich will want to know how high the cross was , how tall the soldier reported to have put his spear in Jesus's side, how long the spear , could he have reached etc etc.

Brian

I am sure that many people were killed by crucifiction in Jerasalem at that time. However I don't believe that any of them rose from the dead. Some do believe that. That is their right. Arguing about whether you could survive crucifiction is not going to change anybody's mind so lets move on.

 

[Alc]

Arguing ........is not going to change anybody's mind so lets move on.

Oh dear, you really haven't got the hang of how these 'debates' work on the forum, have you?
Person A: I believe X
Person B: That's incorrect
Person A: I choose to believe it
Person B: Well, you shouldn't
Person A: But I do
Person B: Well, you shouldn't
ad infinitum

 

[Rabbie]

Oh dear, you really haven't got the hang of how these 'debates' work on the forum, have you?

I have a touching faith that people on this forum are not as stupid as they sometimes pretend to be.

Perhap one day......