Guilty or Not Guilty? The George Floyd trial...

[Jon]

I just haven't been convinced he Od'd.

You don't have to be convinced he Od'd, that is not the standard. The standard is just that it is a reasonable possibility. What circumstances would have to be true for you to believe that he might have died of an OD?

Have you heard evidence of that?

Not directly, but we are still waiting for the defences argument. However, if you try to ingest your drugs to avoid police discovery, you may be taking more than you would normally do so. He already had fentanyl in his system from before the arrest, so adding more to avoid this detection would increase the level to higher than he chose prior to the police struggle. I think a reasonable conclusion is that he topped up his levels with a panic and sudden ingestion of more fentanyl. We also have evidence that he recently accidentally took an overdose, so he already has a history of putting his life at risk through unsafe drug usage.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Moke, the problem is that all the charges include Chauvin being responsible at some level for Floyd's death. That increases his chances of walking free rather than being found guilty of using excessive force. I think anyone who's seen the tape would convict him of excessive force or whatever that charge would be but that doesn't make Chauvin responsible directly for Floyd's death. Floyd would have died on the way to jail if they had just left him in the police car. The prosecutors bought into the BLM lie and left themselves no out. I think letting Chauvin walk is a travesty but the prosecutors left the jury no alternative. There is too much doubt regarding how much being pinned on the ground contributed to Floyd's death and we still haven't heard the defense yet.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Chauvin isn't even charged with murder one. The prosecutors had to add murder 3 in case they couldn't convict on murder 2.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@moke123, I have to side with "Not Guilty" on the charges that were filed. I've been on a couple of juries and understand "responsive verdicts." Was Mr. Chauvin a bad cop? Almost certainly. Did he cause Mr. Floyd's death? This is the crux of the matter. This is a criminal trial. In ALL criminal jury trials that I have ever seen or heard about, the standard is "beyond reasonable doubt." The drugs in his system and his history of drug use would give me serious doubts.

I had a friend who was a heavy user of various recreational drugs, but then he found a beautiful woman who dragged him out of the muck. My dear friend R was cleaning up his act, and in fact had stopped using. He was seeing a doctor about dealing with the side effects. One day he was on the tennis courts and just keeled over. I suspect (but wasn't there so couldn't listen for it) that he had a massive arrhythmia. Someone on the scene took his blood pressure, which was something like 110/90. My friend R died in his early 30s because of the aftermath of drug use and wasn't even being restrained, much less on the ground.

Based on the evidence presented (from various sources) Mr. Floyd can reasonably be assumed to have taken some drugs to prevent police from finding them on him. Given how the situation ended, one has to presume that he took the drugs BEFORE he was handcuffed and brought to the ground. If the defense argued to me that he died due to the drugs in his system and the mere presence of the police as an "agitating" factor thus leading to stress, I would HAVE to say that it is reasonable to say that I have doubts about exactly what killed Mr. Floyd.

 

[Jon]

Doc, I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read, but were you aware that Floyd had severe heart disease with a 90% occluded artery?

 

[grenee]

Can race be considered an issue in this case, given the chronic cases of police in that country shooting and otherwise killing unarmed black men and boys and now girls in broad daylight, with impunity. Not even getting a charge?

 

[Steve R.]

Can race be considered an issue in this case, given the chronic cases of police in that country shooting and otherwise killing unarmed black men and boys and now girls in broad daylight, with impunity. Not even getting a charge?

No. This is basically a false narrative built on manipulating how statistical data is interpreted. It is the race baiters, like BLM, who are trying to falsely make it a racist incident.

Moreover, in this incident plus others, there is no evidence that the police officers had acted with racial animus. If that evidence existed the media, like the Times and Post would be screaming with glee for uncovering racism. Their silence demonstrates that these have not been racist events.

 

[Pat Hartman]

grenee, Please do the research yourself. "chronic" isn't even close to the truth. You are buying the narrative without question. Several people here have posted actual statistics on deaths of unarmed black men at the hands of white police officers vs whites killed by black officers and all other deaths of unarmed people by the police.

Just because Chauvin is white and Floyd was black doesn't make it a hate crime. If that were true, the two black girls who killed the Uber driver would have to be charged with a hate crime but in reality, they're going to skate BECAUSE they are black. How's that for racisms in the system? If the girls had been white, DC would be in tatters due to the rioting.

 

[Isaac]

Well, this thread continues (predictable, of course), to be exceedingly interesting to read. I'm sticking with the last thing I posted here, which is, despite the (large) number of times I've been tempted to come to a conclusion of some sort, it just isn't right. I want to wait to hear all the arguments on all sides. Not that anyone in the world cares what I think! LOL

I do believe it is key to remember that whether or not Chauvin was using excessive force is not the question. It's whether he knowingly killed George Floyd AND that death was unnecessary, or else acted so recklessly that it meets the manslaughter definition.

To be completely honest with you, a part of me also wonders if we are forgetting about the rational side of this. If you are kneeling on a street corner with a dozen people screaming at you and taking video, would you continue calmly and coldly doing something that you actually thought was killing a person who wasn't moving? Of course we don't know the answer to that question for sure. And - Yes, it's true, there are all kinds of people in the world. It's possible Chauvin actually thought "I'm about to go to prison for this. I'm about to possibly be executed for this. I'm about to spend the rest of my life getting beat up while incarcerated".

It's POSSIBLE.......But extremely unlikely.

Fentanyl, like other tolerance-building drugs, is tricky. A person who has been clean for a while, even a few weeks, often goes back - relapsing - and uses an amount such as they were used to the last time they had a tolerance built up. That "same" amount kills them. The amount someone takes after using for a few months is FAR more than a person using for the first time could use and still live. Deaths from relapses after a few months clean is exceedingly common of a scenario.

Tiny amounts of methamphetamine are extremely unsafe. You can have a heart attack or seizure at any time. There is NO safe amount. It speeds you up in an almost un-human type of way that defies the understanding.

I think Chauvin made some poor judgments, and I'm open to the asphyxia arguments, but it's very hard for me to imagine any scenario in which the drugs did not help to exascerbate the reduced oxygen - I'm just not sure.

It's also unfortunate that the public knows the names of these folks testifying. Obviously, testifying for the defense with your name publicly known is akin to being suicidal given the publicity. BLM protestors have killed people for far less. Like showing up to defend a convenience store. Imagine what they'll do to anyone on the wrong side of this trial....Really, it's a despicable behavior, given the professed concern for human life.

We simply must wait and see. I hope justice is done. And am not sure what that may be.

Meanwhile, while giving George the respect he deserves, let's not gloss over the dozens of people being murdered due to new policies every month. Their lives are no less valuable.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I think Chauvin made some poor judgments, and I'm open to the asphyxia arguments, but it's very hard for me to imagine any scenario in which the drugs did not help to exascerbate the reduced oxygen - I'm just not sure.

Why did officer Chauvin take Mr. Floyd out of the police cruiser? I cannot figure out why he was placed in the back seat then taken out.

 

[Isaac]

Why did officer Chauvin take Mr. Floyd out of the police cruiser? I cannot figure out why he was placed in the back seat then taken out.

View attachment 90745

I thought it was because he was known for taking drugs while being arrested? I thought maybe they wanted to get a handle on that situation, but honestly I have no idea for sure

 

[moke123]

I thought it was because he was known for taking drugs while being arrested?

quite the feat when your hands are cuffed behind your back and they turned your pockets out.

 

[AccessBlaster]

it seems like a mistake or bad judgment.
Because had they closed the door he still would have OD then is just a matter of calling EMT, case closed.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Doc, I'm not sure how much of this thread you have read, but were you aware that Floyd had severe heart disease with a 90% occluded artery?

Yes. Merely adds to the "reasonable doubt" side of the argument.

The drugs were enough. The coronary artery disease is icing on the cake.

 

[Isaac]

quite the feat when your hands are cuffed behind your back and they turned your pockets out.

I agree - after that point has passed, it seems doubtful he could have ingested any more drugs.

 

[Isaac]

There is one fact that we just 'live with' as being normal, which I find disturbing. And this comment isn't meant to apply just to the George Floyd case, it's a broad observation on all homicide cases. Isn't it pretty wild to think that we all rely on one, single person's judgment as to the cause of death? (Yes I know in this case at least two were done, but I'm speaking generally).

Just think ... you have numerous people as witnesses, numerous people as medical experts making various other opinions, but just one single man--the coroner--publishes his own personal opinion as best as we can. In any of these cases. One, single, person, a regular person just like you and me, with biases and flaws, a normal person who has good days and bad days, who loses sleep, who has afternoons half asleep at their desk some days like we all do, who may have just had a fight with their spouse or become annoyed or infuriated at any of the myriad events that accost our psyche all day and week long....and wakes up one morning to an especially important task: Being the single person in the world on whose decision will rest and from that will spring all the rest of the conversation. And upon that.......... the whole world bases "This was the cause of death, and there can be no deviation from that conclusion".

It's actually pretty scary if you think about it!

Imagine if your WHOLE entire life's future rested on the decision that one random doctor made for you last Tuesday afternoon, and that was the end of the story.

What would my suggestion be (if $ resources weren't an obstacle) ? I would be more comfortable with a panel of coroners, all equal. At least several of them have to be involved in the physical examination and custody of chemicals and test materials. Then all - say, 12 - of them write a report. Majority rules, but dissents are allowed and published. One thing I am positive of: The actual truth, in many of these cases, is much more involved than one single person's conclusion. It simply has to be. No one person is always right, no matter what their field, so why do we treat autopsies as if that weren't the case?

 

[Isaac]

Can race be considered an issue in this case, given the chronic cases of police in that country shooting and otherwise killing unarmed black men and boys and now girls in broad daylight, with impunity. Not even getting a charge?

Regarding the "chronic cases".

Approximately 17 totally unarmed black people were killed by police during the year 2015.

 

[AccessBlaster]

I am pro-law enforcement my encounters with police are limited to a few youth indiscretions. As an adult, my only encounters with police are traffic-related.

I held a commercial driver's license for over 30 years so I have been pulled over numerous times over my career. Even though I am a white male I have a healthy respect for the police, I recall an incident a few years back while driving my personal car. I was pulled over for a license plate tag on a car I recently bought from a car dealer. Everything was going smooth until I asked the officer why I was pulled over, he hadn't disclosed the reason at that point. His demeanor completely changed his face turned red and he seemed out of control for a moment. I was doing everything by the book, hands-on wheel asking permission to reach into the glove box the usual drill. Honestly, I thought I was about to get old fashion ass-whipping.

My biggest fear of police is having several officers on my back while prone yelling stop resisting when you are struggling to breathe you are fighting for your life therefore resisting.

 

[Jon]

quite the feat when your hands are cuffed behind your back and they turned your pockets out.

Is it possible that he put the drugs in his mouth when he saw the cop cars arriving? He was not handcuffed then.

 

[Jon]

Why did officer Chauvin take Mr. Floyd out of the police cruiser? I cannot figure out why he was placed in the back seat then taken out.

When he was forced into the back seat, he started kicking the officers. A violent struggle ensued and Floyd was pleading with the police to put him on the ground, which they did. I am not sure if they could keep him in the back of the squad car or not, due to the struggle. He was laying across the back seat of the squad car, and at 6'5" I would imagine it was impossible to shut the door.