Has NASA found (potentially) extraterrestrial life? (1 Viewer)

[Adam Caramon]

I thought I was clear.

Honestly, you're not clear at all. The impression I am getting from you is that you're only looking for the examples that back up your belief, without considering those that contradict it.

A couple exceptional people out of one hundred that see things the way you do, while the other 98 don't seems to suffice to you that "something must be out there."


As I've mentioned in the past, everyone is free to believe whatever they want. In trying to learn why you believe what you believe, I'm coming up short. It doesn't seem to be based on any evidence (which is ok), yet it seems you want it to, so you're trying to formulate evidence out of nothing.

Most of your posts are littered with personal examples in your professional life, that, to you, indicate "something must be out there". That seems to be your only real basis for believing the way that you do. Again, that is just fine. I don't understand your desire to try to provide evidence for your belief when you don't put much stock into evidence.

But, maybe that is all part of the divine plan

 

[Mike375]

Honestly, you're not clear at all. The impression I am getting from you is that you're only looking for the examples that back up your belief, without considering those that contradict it.

As I posted earlier, iIbought Darwin's book when I was about 15 and was atheist from about age 20 to 33.

I read heaps of stuff that goes the other way. However, at the moment the score card for me is higher on the other side. But there is zero value in me bringing up stuff that is opposite to my current views since that is what your side of the debate is doing.

A couple exceptional people out of one hundred that see things the way you do, while the other 98 don't seems to suffice to you that "something must be out there."

Actually you will find the astronauts and the private practice medical specialists are well out of the league of 2 from a 100. You would be closer if you reversed those numbers.

And in the interests of a balanced view the argument against the astronauts and the medical specialists is their views are or could be swayed by life changing type experiences.

As I've mentioned in the past, everyone is free to believe whatever they want. In trying to learn why you believe what you believe, I'm coming up short. It doesn't seem to be based on any evidence (which is ok), yet it seems you want it to, so you're trying to formulate evidence out of nothing.

As has been posted before several times on this topic, what constitutes "evidence" will vary with people. I think you will find a basic difference between us is I am far more instinct driven and will move on or make a decision with far less information and analysis and renalysis.

I firmly believe there is no real evidence either way and your personality will determine which side of the debate you belong.

As a matter of interest how do you see things pre Big Bang and what is your evidence?

Most of your posts are littered with personal examples in your professional life, that, to you, indicate "something must be out there". That seems to be your only real basis for believing the way that you do. Again, that is just fine. I don't understand your desire to try to provide evidence for your belief when you don't put much stock into evidence.

I think you will find that most things I have said in relation to my work revolves around telepathy. There are certainly many things I see or experience via my occupation that can make me think "there must be something out there etc" but that usually traces back to a telepathy type of situation.

But, maybe that is all part of the divine plan

It could be.

 

[Adam Caramon]

But there is zero value in me bringing up stuff that is opposite to my current views since that is what your side of the debate is doing.

The value in doing it is to be complete. If you were to say I think x, but reputable person/group/whatever says y, and I disagree because of z, it is very thorough. It shows that you're aware of the current information, viewpoints, etc. It shows that you have spent time actually thinking about it, and it lends more credibility to your argument.

Actually you will find the astronauts and the private practice medical specialists are well out of the league of 2 from a 100. You would be closer if you reversed those numbers.

You might be right about that, I don't have the facts to argue with you. However, any large group that is then filtered based on select criteria which is then used to represent the unfiltered group is of little value.

Educated people in general tend towards nonbelief, but I'm sure educated people who were educated in divinity or schooled in a religious curriculum tend towards belief.

Astronauts and private practice medical specialists are two groups that you could do studies/research on, and I am sure it would reveal some interesting trends. In the larger scheme of things, however, those two groups make up less than 1% of "Educated people".

As has been posted before several times on this topic, what constitutes "evidence" will vary with people. I think you will find a basic difference between us is I am far more instinct driven and will move on or make a decision with far less information and analysis and renalysis.

Your arguments seem to come under the umbrella of the everyman persona. The common every day guy who goes through all the goods and bads of daily life and has an opinion on it. Just like every other guy or gal that does the same.

What makes one guy's opinion/thoughts more valid than the next? Evidence. And while, yes, what one person considers evidence might not be the same as the next, I think there are many common aspects that the majority of people would agree constitute evidence.

I firmly believe there is no real evidence either way and your personality will determine which side of the debate you belong.

If you mean no real evidence either way on the origins of life, then yes, that's all still really vague. But simply because you can't answer that question with evidence doesn't mean you can't answer other, related questions, with evidence.

As a matter of interest how do you see things pre Big Bang and what is your evidence?

My interests have never really started with the beginnings of time. My information on the Big Bang its self, as well as what preceeded it is pretty scarce. Its much like the colony of Roanoke. It disappeared at one point, and no one has the definitive reason why. Its interesting, but I've never formulated an opinion on it because I doesn't interest me enough.

The combination of my educational learning, reading, life experience, etc. leads me against the idea of a deity-type figure that is involved in the creation of the universe. But I would never claim I have evidence that could prove this.

I think you will find that most things I have said in relation to my work revolves around telepathy.

My impression of what you have said in regards to your work has usually been why you think certain groups of people believe in things. Most of your examples have been in regards to why prviate practice medical specialists believe a certain way. I think you were even trying to suggest that incredibly successful people tend towards belief.

Its one thing to say you think telepathy is possible, but to say that you regularly engage in telepathy, which seems to be one-sided from your explanations, sounds far too close to "hearing voices" for my tastes.

As Rabbie was showing, some people have very good intuiton. I think it is a combination of experiences with people, the ability to read body language, or seeing many actions or events and being able to quickly calculate on a subconcious level the most likely thing that is to happen. Then, when it does, it seems supernatural.

 

[Rich]

The selling where you most commonly find the religious or whatever you like to call it is where the salesman is usually self employed and he canvasses for business. In other words he has a direct control on outcomes.

If he really goes hard at it then you see all sorts of strange things happen. Give you a simple example. Let's say the salesmen generates 2 new cold appointments per week. As a rough rule that will mean with second interviews and sometimes third interviews he will end up having 4 appointments per week. In short he is taking it easy. He will of course have a certain closing ratio.

Now let's take the same salesmen and he really goes all out and generates 12 new appointments a week which ultimately wll develop in to 25 or so appointments. I can tell you that to do that in Sydney with the traffic you won't have time to sit down and eat. You eat in the car, I know because I have done it

A strange thing happens and that is the bloke going all out for it and no time to sit down and eat gets a significantly higher closing rate. Yet he has far less time to follow up leads and prepare stuff or get things done for them. It is almost as if he radiates something off himself.

There is also another strange thing happens. Even though he has zero time left for anything else the rest of his life just seems to fall into place. It is almost like there is some force that clears everything out of the way for him. What will bring most to a stop is the big bundle of dollars coming in. The person who has what it takes whether it be the selling, a Werner von Braun etc can and does still carry on until the ultimate goal is reached and that journey brings out the stuff that causes the religion, especially those who go all the way to "born again" or if they are Catholic then Mass every morning.

As to selling to salesman I think we buy concepts and then move on. And remember the big earning doctor or the Werner von Brauns are or have been in von Braun's case, are salesman.

Strange as it may seem the situation I outlined above also applies to the surgeon. Anaethetists will tell you that the real big income surgeon who is moving at a million miles an hour, both with cases and his practice issues, is often not as good techically as the low end bloke but his score or success rate is much better. The anaethetist will tell you along the lines of.....they just seem to get the timing right for when to operate, almost as if by magic etc.....

What does your argument have to do with the price of fish?

 

[ChipperT]

What does your argument have to do with the price of fish?

Goodbye and thanks for all of them! The answer is 42. (There, that should pretty much wrap up this thread.)

 

[Rabbie]

they just seem to get the timing right for when to operate, almost as if by magic etc.....

The simple explanation for this could well be that they have a natural talent developed by hard work and training for selling. Doesn't need magic unless you want it to be

 

[Mike375]

The simple explanation for this could well be that they have a natural talent developed by hard work and training for selling. Doesn't need magic unless you want it to be

You have the surgeon mixed up with the salesman

 

[Mike375]

As we all know this topic has had several runs on this site and usually the same posters are involved but yet it still runs for many postings.

Perhaps some of us have some changes in our views as time moves along and so these debates resurface. I am now stronger on the Bible might have some truth than I use to be. But I am less inclined to think that power behind the start of the universe or universes is a "being or beings"

Those of you who are true atheist (I don't thin that is what you are Adam) have your views strengthened or weakened over time?

 

[Mike375]

As Rabbie was showing, some people have very good intuiton. I think it is a combination of experiences with people, the ability to read body language, or seeing many actions or events and being able to quickly calculate on a subconcious level the most likely thing that is to happen. Then, when it does, it seems supernatural.

My evidence for telepathy has nothing to do with body language or knowing the person. My evidence comes from people who in the vast majority of cases I have never met.

 

[Rabbie]

You have the surgeon mixed up with the salesman

Same thing applies. Good surgeons are a result of natural talent and good training as well.

 

[Rabbie]

My evidence for telepathy has nothing to do with body language or knowing the person. My evidence comes from people who in the vast majority of cases I have never met.

Perhaps you should share some of your evidence with us. So far you just mention it as a foregone conclusion. Let's hear your examples so we can judge if there was telepathy involved.

 

[Mike375]

Same thing applies. Good surgeons are a result of natural talent and good training as well.

I know. But when they move at a million miles an hour things happen.

 

[Mike375]

Perhaps you should share some of your evidence with us. So far you just mention it as a foregone conclusion. Let's hear your examples so we can judge if there was telepathy involved.

Take a few paragrpahs but based on your reply about the salesman and surgeon moving at high speed I think you only glance at this sort of thing.

Go back and look at what I said about the salesman. Talking about the same individual in either scenario so training and skill is not relevant since two different people are not being compared.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Those of you who are true atheist (I don't thin that is what you are Adam) have your views strengthened or weakened over time?

Every time I read about church/religion trying to impose their view upon public policy or laws, my views are reinforced. I say reinforced, rather than strengthened, because I try my best not to let those groups influence me further against the idea of religion as a whole.

I can see the benefits of religion being applied to certain groups of people. It can be a great mechanism to control some who would otherwise be violent or criminals.

It can also be great for forging tighter communities where everyone cares about each other and generally try to lend a helping hand when they can. You just have to make sure such groups don't devolve into the us versus them mentality that can happen with close-knit groups.

I personally believe we could achieve the benefits that religion provides without the religious indoctrination. Community centers could replace churches. Volunteer groups, food banks, day cares, etc. could (and do) operate efficiently without religion.

Perhaps you should share some of your evidence with us. So far you just mention it as a foregone conclusion. Let's hear your examples so we can judge if there was telepathy involved.

I get the feeling that Mike doesn't really put much stock in what most people would consider evidence. I think it is safe to say that what he considers evidence for the existence of telepathy would never pass muster under any controlled scientific experiments.

 

[Mike375]

Every time I read about church/religion trying to impose their view upon public policy or laws, my views are reinforced. I say reinforced, rather than strengthened, because I try my best not to let those groups influence me further against the idea of religion as a whole.

I can see the benefits of religion being applied to certain groups of people. It can be a great mechanism to control some who would otherwise be violent or criminals.

It can also be great for forging tighter communities where everyone cares about each other and generally try to lend a helping hand when they can. You just have to make sure such groups don't devolve into the us versus them mentality that can happen with close-knit groups.

I personally believe we could achieve the benefits that religion provides without the religious indoctrination. Community centers could replace churches. Volunteer groups, food banks, day cares, etc. could (and do) operate efficiently without religion.

Are you an atheist because you don't like what churches/religions do.

I get the feeling that Mike doesn't really put much stock in what most people would consider evidence. I think it is safe to say that what he considers evidence for the existence of telepathy would never pass muster under any controlled scientific experiments.

And you sound like someone who if the doctor took your blood pressure and it was elevated, you would need a another 10 readings where all are elevated and then a second opinion. Then if you agreed it was elevated I imagine you would then need to see all sorts of figures and analysis on the drug he prescribed.

As to telepathy or whatever you want call it my evidence is good enough and consistent enough that I rely on it and will and do make monetary commitments based on it.

 

[Rabbie]

Take a few paragrpahs but based on your reply about the salesman and surgeon moving at high speed I think you only glance at this sort of thing.

Go back and look at what I said about the salesman. Talking about the same individual in either scenario so training and skill is not relevant since two different people are not being compared.

Mike, you are putting too much emphasis on a slip I made when posting late at night UK time. Just provide the evidence if you have it.

Training and skill do influence performance so I fail to see the relevance of telepathy as it is commonly understood to your point.

 

[Mike375]

Rabbie,

I will do one for you with telephone cold calling.

So we are talking about cold calling prospects to try and gain a selling interview. In some cases the erson phoning is doing it to get appointments for someone else and in other cases the caller is making the appointments for himself. But for this exercise it is the same.

With cold calling statistics are maintained that cover everything you could think of plus lot you would not think of. But at the most basic there are things like the number of actual contacts made to get an appointment, the number of appointments gained per hour, the number of dollars earned per hour or averaged to a dollaw figure each time you dial a number.

As a side note the number of apointments gained per hour does not necessarily correlate with the dollars per hour because of different prospect categories etc.

But the bottom line big one is dollars earned per hour. Every call is recorded....a One to Many.....some prospects might be phoned 4 times because ther were unavailable, no answer etc or they answer but say...I am a bit busy so try next week and so on.

In short nothing relies on selective memory as everything and I mean everything is recorded.

However, what I outline below only holds when the cold calling activity is at a very high level. In other words if someone just calls for 30 minutes every couple of days none of the below takes place. You might remember with what I said about the salesman and surgeon.....the extreme activity.

OK. As I said above the bottom line is earnings, money

One note about sales/calling ratios. They vary a lot over time. You can take a 12 month average but that figure won't show in shorter blocks of time like a month.

However, it is as if you entitled to earn a certain amount from the activity, no more and no less and you generally measure this sort of thing up on a month basis

If the caller/salesman calls at a very high level of activity, bordering on the obsession level then he will get money for the month to match what he should get irrespective of the sale success on the phone and that includes when the results are poor.

So where does the money come from if the cold calling has turned in bad numbers? This the amazing part.

The money can come from all sorts of areas. Could be someone he spoke to 3 months ago when he was making calls. He gets a loan repaid to him that he had written off and so. It is so reliable that I can guarantee if I call at fever pace for 1 month but I strike a bad patch of prospects etc I will still get the money come to me. The actual sales ratios will be irrelevant. The only criteria is the extreme obsessive like activity.

But the reverse also applies. If the caller gets earnings from the calls that is above and beyond what he is entitled to then....things fall apart elsewhere and is brought back to where he should be. Hence the sales ratios are not relevant to the result.

But apart from fever like activity the calls must be made in the normal way and with the normal effort for prospect selection. In other words if someone just called numbers from the phone book and said...my name is Mike, would you be interestes in making an appointment for whatever...and if the prospect says no and I just move to the next call...then it won't work. Almost like some unwritten law where "x" amount of effort is required.

Allow me to relate a little story to you that occurred with me at the latter part of 1990. I decided to take on a personal assistant whereby she would do virtually everything while I went bore. The shopping, office stuff etc. The salary I paid was very high and she left a well paid job to come. I already knew her as she came out of an insurance company and knew a lot about the business and how the agent worked. However, when she started I had some foul ups and money had become short, which I told here but said "don't worry"

You guess it, the fever pitch cold calling started but it was not working very well. Sometime that just happens. 2 weeks in she was getting quite worried which was understandable. She even said to me.....you are so relaxed as if money is going to pop up out of the ground. You can figure out what happened. At the end of the month all was well. I then paid her and she said.....if I did not see this with my own eyes I would not have believed it, it is almost religious like....

To me there ar two possible answers. The first is a Jesus type deal. A lot of salesman (also the surgeon travelling at a million miles an hour) go for the Jesus type deal.

The second one is at this level of activity you radiate something out of you and it lands with someone else who then act. I am inclined to go for this one. That could also account for people who all of sudden for no apparent reason decide to repay a loan or buy something.

There is one other criteria that has to be met and I have left this to last and it maybe this criteria that pushes some people to the above being a Jesus deal.

That criteria is....the product being sold must be good for the prospect and the salesman strongly believe in it....hence the Jesus type connection, you are doing good etc. I am inclined to think that when that criteria is met it increases the fever of the activity. In fact if that criteria is not meant I think it is only possible to get "physical" activity up.

If the activity is low and leisurely and the call results are not good then nothing arrives as the "top up". When the activity is as above then the money equals what it should been for the calls that were made, except some or most might come from somewhere else.

Take your pick, either some type of telepathy radiates out from the caller or it is a Jesus deal. I can guarantee you there is no other explanation except maybe something else along the same lines. If there was an explanation it would have been found and applied so the lower activity at the leisurely pace would get the same proportional results. But no one has found it.

As a side note this sort of stuff was written about in 1937 in Think and Grow Rich.

http://www.financial-freedom-made-simple.com/think-and-grow-rich.pdf

 

[Mike375]

Rabbie,

Off topic. I have made some quite good money making the DBs for cold calling. It is rare to have the person who makes the DB who is also a caller so it gives me a plus. The hardest part to make in them is the diary system and doubly so when the person calling is making calls for several agents at the same time. The diary has to be very fast to use and readily allow the person to see when other appointments are on etc. as the diary is being being used in a very fast moving selling situation.

With most of them that are made the diary is no good and the caller is forced to go to a book diary and that really becomes bad news when he calling for 4 or 5 different agents at the same time.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Are you an atheist because you don't like what churches/religions do.

I'm a nonbeliever because belief in Christianity requires suspending your rational mind, common sense, logic, etc. It requires believing in something when all the evidence points against that thing.

I'm against churches/religions because, in my experience, they tend to divide people rather than unite them. They each teach their own brand of hate; explaining why one group is better than another, etc.

There are some religions that would not fall under this, of course, but most organized religions do.

And you sound like someone who if the doctor took your blood pressure and it was elevated, you would need a another 10 readings where all are elevated and then a second opinion.

Not to that extreme.

Then if you agreed it was elevated I imagine you would then need to see all sorts of figures and analysis on the drug he prescribed.

Yeah, I would. In general I don't like taking medication period. Therefore I would want to research any possible side effects or detrimental effects of any medication I am going to take.

As to telepathy or whatever you want call it my evidence is good enough and consistent enough that I rely on it and will and do make monetary commitments based on it.

Right, but it is all anecdotal. People can do things without them being proven as good ideas.

Take your pick, either some type of telepathy radiates out from the caller or it is a Jesus deal. I can guarantee you there is no other explanation except maybe something else along the same lines. If there was an explanation it would have been found and applied so the lower activity at the leisurely pace would get the same proportional results. But no one has found it.

Or, option 3 you work really hard, and your customers pick up on your energy. And they think, if this guy is going to work this hard to get my business, then I want to give it to him.

For people who all of a sudden start paying off accounts that you had written off as noncollectable, I'd suggest coincidence. Sometimes things just happen. There doesn't have to be a special plan or anything operating in the background.

This story reminds me of the Christians who, when times get bad, say "Trust in god, he will provide for us." Turns out that some of them get provided for, and some don't. Which is where the more realistic phrase "god helps those who help themselves" comes from.

 

[Mike375]

Right, but it is all anecdotal. People can do things without them being proven as good ideas.

It would be anecdotal if you told someone what I said. But at this is end it is not.

Use your brain. Have you got any idea how much people like me have tested this and of course with the view to make it work with a leisurely calling style. If you can show me the answer then I will pay you plenty of money.

Myself and others have considered about every possible thing that changes when the calling is at this pace as opposed to be leisurely. Such things as different eating habits, you name it. However testing that stuff is a waste of time because that would only impact on the calling results and they have no relevance to the money brought it in for the month. But still, test we do.

We have double checked that calls a have not been made to other people such as those where money might have come from. That is easy for us to do as every call is recorded. We also check if any correspondence has been sent to people that caused extra money to show up and we have a record of that.

The bottom line is the caller and the people where the extra money comes from are in total isolation of each other. The same applies when call results go to well and then a loss occurs elsewhere to bring the total back to where it should be.

Or, option 3 you work really hard, and your customers pick up on your energy. And they think, if this guy is going to work this hard to get my business, then I want to give it to him.

Either you can't read or you can't get what you read into writing. Customers are not being called. The calls are to cold prospects. If you don't know what that means, it is names, phones numbers, business addresses from listings. When you call at this level you don't call existing customers. Also, I did not say the money necessarily came from existing clients.

For people who all of a sudden start paying off accounts that you had written off as noncollectable, I'd suggest coincidence. Sometimes things just happen. There doesn't have to be a special plan or anything operating in the background.

I said nothing about accounts. I said someone might repay a loan. In addition surely you could work out that I just quoted a couple of examples, not the whole list.

This story reminds me of the Christians who, when times get bad, say "Trust in god, he will provide for us." Turns out that some of them get provided for, and some don't. Which is where the more realistic phrase "god helps those who help themselves" comes from.

Not even like it. Nothing about the bad. What I said was that when the activity is at the fever level you get an amount money equal to what you are entitled to irrespective of the call results. If the call results run poor then other money turns up. If the call results go well above where they should be then losses of money occur elsewhere.

But at leisurely level calling none of this happens. But obvioulsy according to you there should be no difference. Well myself and many others would like that to be the situation.