I never have understood this...

[dan-cat]

Hope I followed your question well enough to attempt an explanation.

You followed it fine

I still don't get how something can be perfect and yet prone to error.

If man was perfect then he would not have gone against God's will by taking a bite out of the apple. Surely being imperfect and the ability to choose NOT God, is one and the same thing. The ability to choose is the ability to err, and that precludes perfection don't you think?

 

[ShaneMan]

You followed it fine

I still don't get how something can be perfect and yet prone to error.

If man was perfect then he would not have gone against God's will by taking a bite out of the apple. Surely being imperfect and the ability to choose NOT God, is one and the same thing. The ability to choose is the ability to err, and that precludes perfection don't you think?

Notice that after perfect I put in parenthesis "had committed no sin." If your hanging your hat on that man could choose to disobey then that made him imperfect, then I would see that point but I don't think it's the point that the Bible is making.

BTW they took a bite of "fruit." We really don't know if it was an apple. The Bible doesn't say. Some where in history it became an apple some how but I really don't know why cause the Bible doesn't indentify what fruit it was.

 

[ShaneMan]

The act of love itself, could you execute one of your children?

Hey Rich,

No, I'm pretty sure I couldn't but then again, I'm not God. God is a perfect being containing no flaws. His attributes are perfect. All of them. He is a God of love, one of His attributes, but He is also a God of Judgement and He's just as perfect in His judgements as He is in His love. I can't pretend to completely understand this but I do believe it by faith. I do want a God that judges perfectly. Mankind messed up what God first created. He passed judgement for the sin committed (much worse than just taking a bite of fruit) We are still living under those judgements. Man wasn't created to die, but we do now. Why? God's judgement. God has promised a coming day when He will make all things perfect again and will not allow the opportunity for man to be tempted and I believe that day will come. Until then. We live under things that make folks like you and I scratch our head and ask "Why would God allow things to happen the way they do."

 

[dan-cat]

Notice that after perfect in put in parenthesis "had committed no sin." If your hanging your hat on that man could choose to disobey then that made him imperfect, then I would see that point but I don't think it's the point that the Bible is making.

I get it, so man was in a 'state' of perfection which was prone to change, yes?

I'd like your opinion on this. If satan had already disobeyed God, what was he doing in Paradise. Man disobeyed God and got promptly evicted from Eden as a punishment, so what was satan doing in Paradise? Do you think he was allowed in as some kind of test to man's integrity?

BTW they took a bite of "fruit." We really don't know if it was an apple. The Bible doesn't say. Some where in history it became an apple some how but I really don't know why cause the Bible doesn't indentify what fruit it was.

I guess it got changed for dramatic effect. Apple falling off a tree, the fall of man? I don't know either.

 

[ShaneMan]

I get it, so man was in a 'state' of perfection which was prone to change, yes?

I'd like your opinion on this. If satan had already disobeyed God, what was he doing in Paradise. Man disobeyed God and got promptly evicted from Eden as a punishment, so what was satan doing in Paradise? Do you think he was allowed in as some kind of test to man's integrity?

I really do think that we can think things to the point of no answers given and for me I just say that it's contained in the mind of God. However, my answer to your question would for the most part be, "yes." I wouldn't quite word it that way but to some theological degree it has merit. Obviously, by what Satan is allowed to do, his punishment, along with 1/3 of the heavens that fell with him, is different from our punishment. We know Satan is still allowed in the presence of God, see Job 1 for an example. I believe God is a God of purpose and that He does direct things to an outcome He purposes. We may not alway like nor agree but in the end, it is for our best good that He does this (see Romans 8:28). Your right man was promptly evicted and it does seem like why can Satan roam in the garden of Eden after he's disobeyed but we can't. You could look at the opposite of this too, though. God came, Himself, to redeem man but not Satan nor the fallen angels (and actually they could serve better than us. They don't eat, don't sleep, and etc). Their punishment is set. God had mercy on man and made provision Himself for man to be right with Him. Something He did not do for Satan or the fallen angels.

 

[Rich]

I would like to read a passge from Christ that advocates an eye for an eye.

Perhaps he was too busy with Mary to write it down

 

[ColinEssex]

Col/Rich/anyone else on the "other side of the pond", how is religion "organized" over there? How many different choices do you have?

There are loads of religions here from the bizarre like C of E to the sensible like sun worshipping. The C of E is self funded (I think) and are the biggest land owner in the UK yet bleat on about money shortages The Salvation Army,? they refused £50,000 from a man because it was part of his winnings from the lottery. If they can refuse £50K then they get nothing more from me.

Col, you were saying you spoke to many different vicars and that they were all condescending towards you, were they from different faiths?

Some were, it was mainly the "worshippers" that treated you like shite. My sisters are religious fanatics and go to a Baptist church where I went too (for about 2 years, to see whats what. Then I went to a C of E (didn't like the dressing up of vicars etc) The baptists were worse for ignoring you and putting you down. If this is what "christians" do then no thanks. I certainly don't expect christians to do it. To me that was part of the religious package - I didn't want to be like that

I went to see Billy Graham in 1969. That was awful, all these people wailing and holding arms up then everyone trooped to the front (not me) to become "christians" - amazing what effect a smooth talking man can do, and he absolutely coined it in
There is a British "Billy Graham" called Don Summers He's a mate of Billy Grahams and he lived in Bristol where I was (at that time) and I met him (because I fancied his daughter - long story!!!) I went round his house a few times - he's ok to chat to, not too pushy. I hate pushy religious people.

As far as your other comment with your mother and the reformed nasty guy, . . . . .I don't want to believe that good people will be punished for eternity because they didn't find God, and I'm not convinced that a loving, caring God would punish one of his children like that. So I'm with you on that one particular point.

That comment about my Mum going to hell and the nasty man to heaven was the last time I ever spoke to a minister / vicar about religion (that was 1969). It was the last time I set foot in a church (for a service) When he said it, I walked out, went home and burned my bible in the garden.
I was not going to have some jumped-up 'holier than thou' telling me my Mum was going to hell My Mum was the kindest person I ever knew, and she worked hard to bring us all up and always supported us in whatever we did. I never knew her to do anything "wrong"

At least I feel I tried to understand this religious mumbo jumbo and just couldn't accept the rubbish that was being spouted - If I wanted to worship something, I think the most sensible thing to worship is to worship the sun. It brings life, warmth and without it we'd all die. You can see it, so you know its there, its not a figment of imagination. I reckon the Aztecs got it right

Have a guess what reception American Jehovas Witnesses get when I open the door to them

Col

 

[ColinEssex]

I'm not running Texas down. I've made a good living here. It's just not home.

You should be a Texan if you live there and it should be home now.

After all, arn't there those on other threads saying that if you live in the USA you should be 'American' even if home is Italy or whatever.

Col

 

[Rich]

Have a guess what reception American Jehovas Witnesses get when I open the door to them

Stick a blood donor card in the window, they won't knock on the door

 

[Rich]

odd init, Hitler could end up in heaven and all those he butchered to hell

 

[dan-cat]

I don't want to believe that good people will be punished for eternity because they didn't find God, and I'm not convinced that a loving, caring God would punish one of his children like that.

I think eternal punishment is one of the cruellest fabrications that man has come up with thus far.

 

[ColinEssex]

I think eternal punishment is one of the cruellest fabrications that man has come up with thus far.

I think religion is.

Without it we wouldn't have had / have so many people fighting each other.


Col

 

[Rich]

I think religion is.

Without it we wouldn't have had / have so many people fighting each other.


Col

Yeah odd isn't it that at a time when there's a case for its removal in schools our great and glorious leader wants to promote more division by increasing the number of brainwashing institutions

 

[KenHigg]

I think eternal punishment is one of the cruellest fabrications that man has come up with thus far.

I think so called 'Ant Killer' is... It doesn't kill 'em, they just move to another part of the yard

 

[selenau837]

Wow, I certinally did spark some contraversy.

That was not my desire to cause conflict. I was just simply saying I'm torn. Ohh, well that is the great thing among us here. We can take any topic and make a huge debate out of it.

 

[ColinEssex]

Yeah odd isn't it that at a time when there's a case for its removal in schools our great and glorious leader wants to promote more division by increasing the number of brainwashing institutions

Religion is causing mini sectarianism in schools now apparently. Kids get beaten to a pulp for being the "wrong" religion.

Is there a case for banning its teaching? after all, if kids want to persue it, they can do it in their own time or have it forced on them by brainwashed parents.

Col

 

[Rich]

Kids get beaten to a pulp for being the "wrong" religion.

Col

It doesn't look as if much has changed over 2,000 years does it?

 

[selenau837]

Ok, question. For those that don't believe in a God or God, how do you explain the existence of man? How do you explain our creation? Big Bang Therory, or climbed out of a cestpool of sludge and algae?

 

[Rich]

Ok, question. For those that don't believe in a God or God, how do you explain the existence of man? How do you explain our creation? Big Bang Therory, or climbed out of a cestpool of sludge and algae?

we evolved from space dust, are you suggesting somebody sat in heaven with a plunger to create the big bang?

 

[selenau837]

we evolved from space dust, are you suggesting somebody sat in heaven with a plunger to create the big bang?

Nope, Don't believe in the big bang therory. You know what I believe, I was just curious what you thought.